Martin Crowe or Andy Flower (in tests)

[RossTaylorsBox]

I don't think Crowe was ever a liability for NZ, him on one knee was better than the rest of our lineup combined in the 90s.

 

[Flem274*]

also not his fault he was picked as a teenager. if he was a liability then they should have dropped him.

 

[Bolo.]

There are limits to that argument. Otherwise we can start blaming the selectors for picking Mitch J pre 2011ish and wonder why Harris gets all the love. He wasnt playing as a 13 year old... he was dire well into his 20s. Playing for a number of years averaging low 20s is something that should count against a bat.

He's not being compared to someone not good enough to make his own team at comparable ages... Flower played from Zims start until his protest exit. Would have almost certainly been better than Crowe outside of Crowes peak over careers of the same length.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Flower played from Zims start until his protest exit. Would have almost certainly been better than Crowe outside of Crowes peak over careers of the same length.

No way to tell if it didn't happen though. Can't get credit for not playing cricket for me .

 

[Bolo.]

No way to tell if it didn't happen though. Can't get credit for not playing cricket for me .

No points are better thsn negative points.

 

[Athlai]

There are limits to that argument. Otherwise we can start blaming the selectors for picking Mitch J pre 2011ish and wonder why Harris gets all the love. He wasnt playing as a 13 year old... he was dire well into his 20s. Playing for a number of years averaging low 20s is something that should count against a bat.

He's not being compared to someone not good enough to make his own team at comparable ages... Flower played from Zims start until his protest exit. Would have almost certainly been better than Crowe outside of Crowes peak over careers of the same length.

Rubbish. Steve Smith wouldn't be less a batsman if his record was worse due to being able to play more Tests as a spinner. Team depth can absolutely affect early career development, particularly for countries that have all the depth of a Justin Bieber album.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

soothing to the eye, it’s martin crowe

 

[Bolo.]

Rubbish. Steve Smith wouldn't be less a batsman if his record was worse due to being able to play more Tests as a spinner. Team depth can absolutely affect early career development, particularly for countries that have all the depth of a Justin Bieber album.

Bats for every team get picked before ready with the expectation that they will be mediocre and grow into the role, allowing them to be better bats sooner. There is a fair argument that they should not be judged for their initial mediocrity, but Crowe failed to achieve mediocrity (even by the standards of his team) outside of his peak. For his last and first two years, he averaged 5, 20, and 16. This is specialist bowler stuff, even for NZ of the time.

He had an impressive peak, but it isnt directly comparable to Flowers career who did not have the time being poor, or the time to learn the ropes at test level prepeak.

I think there is a fair point to be made that Flower would not have been likely to be a 52 average bat if he had also been picked at 19, but he also wouldnt have been a 45 average bat either, so the truth sits in middle.

 

[Days of Grace]

Don't agree with excluding the rest of Crowes career. You can (arguably) do it for someone like Viv who was still an asset, but Crowe was a huge liability for a number of years, and this should count against him.

A number of years? As in 2? (first and last years of his career)

 

[Bolo.]

A number of years? As in 2? (first and last years of his career)

OP was mentioning his peak 10 calender years. Outside of that he played 4 calender years and averaged 20 and a bit.

 

[akilana]

A number of years? As in 2? (first and last years of his career)

Remove just one year for Andy Flower, the last of his career, his average shoots up to 56. It clearly shows Andy Flower was a class above.

 

[Athlai]

Remove just one year for Andy Flower, the last of his career, his average shoots up to 56. It clearly shows Andy Flower was a class above.

Nah, runs were a bit harder to come by in Crowes years and in NZ than they were during Flowers and in Zimbabwe. Not as simple as just looking at the averages. Need to actually compare how they did with their contemporaries.

 

[Bolo.]

Nah, runs were a bit harder to come by in Crowes years and in NZ than they were during Flowers and in Zimbabwe. Not as simple as just looking at the averages. Need to actually compare how they did with their contemporaries.

Not so sure about either of these. There is a pretty big list of contemporaries who averaged more than Crowe over a big chunk of games. Not so many for Flower. Have a feeling this one is pretty close.

My (not reliable) memory of Zim pitches is that they were pretty docile, so there may be a point there. On the other hand, Flower was equally good home and away, and Crowe wasnt, which may (or may not) say something about home pitches.

 

[TheJediBrah]

kiwi brahs voting with their hearts

 

[mr_mister]

Nearly every team had an ATG bowler or two during Flowers era

 

[Anil]

crowe easily the more talented but flower was clearly the more accomplished...

 

[Immenso]

Flower: Entire career is 11 years.
He was the 6th best batsman of his career span (by average)

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Crowe: if take an 11 year peak (Jan 1984 to Dec 1994)
He was 3rd best batsman of that era. (by average)

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

If take Crowe's career from the age of 24 and half (same as Flower's debut)
He was 5th best batsman.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

If take Crowe's entire career span, he drops way down to 16th.
This isn't very scientific, but if you look at bottom of page of Crowe's span, the 50th highest average of his career span is Healy with 26 while for Flowers career span the 50th best batsman averages 7 runs higher with Hudson averaging 33. But during Flower's error the number of test teams and hence players has increased by 25% (form 8 teams to 10), so may be insignificant?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Interesting, that Crowe played 58% of his tests away from home. He was worse away from home by 8 runs.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Flower was equally good home or away, and his distribution of matches were even.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Both batted well when had captaincy.

 

[ankitj]

There's a great thread for all this.