Len Hutton vs Steve Smith

[BazBall21]

Good post, I'd say Hutton's record is as flawless as Marshall.

He did nearly all he could. The only caveats are sport developmental factors; those being: bowling probably wasn't as fast back then, and players now operate against&in a slightly wider range of countries etc.

 

[Johan]

He did nearly all he could. The only caveats are sport developmental factors; those being: bowling probably wasn't as fast back then, and players now operate against&in a slightly wider range of countries etc.

this also comes with the bonus of batting on wet pitches, with much smaller bats, no bouncer limitations for someone like Miller and Lindwall who fully deployed borderline bodyline (pun intended) tactics and so forth.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

He did nearly all he could. The only caveats are sport developmental factors; those being: bowling probably wasn't as fast back then, and players now operate against&in a slightly wider range of countries etc.

When do you think bowling speeds became faster? Bowling speeds today are obviously faster than they were in the 50s but late 70s seems to be when they started to increase.

 

[capt_Luffy]

skillfully perhaps but I rate Viv's one sided brutalisation of ATG pacers very highly, I don't know what to say, I'm just a sucker for things like that.

also, switch.

Viv had his moments vs Hadlee and Imran, but those two really dominated against WI in the long run. The only ATG he brutalised was just Lillee really, that too in one 3 match series (and WSC, which does holds more weight in this scenario).

I will wait till Smith retires really.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Still on Team Hutton here but obviously Smith is closing the gap the longer he can keep on being good.

 

[Johan]

Viv had his moments vs Hadlee and Imran, but those two really dominated against WI in the long run. The only ATG he brutalised was just Lillee really, that too in one 3 match series (and WSC, which does holds more weight in this scenario).

Hadlee he averages 43 with but against peak Imran (80s) he averages 58 which is very impressive to me, again, personal standard.

fair on waiting, Smith will probably drop a few more average points.

 

[Johan]

When do you think bowling speeds became faster? Bowling speeds today are obviously faster than they were in the 50s but late 70s seems to be when they started to increase.

You had an English opener from 1958 handling Lillee and Thompson, so there was never really any radical change in speeds that changed Cricket, it's just a fantasy.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hadlee he averages 43 with but against peak Imran (80s) he averages 58 which is very impressive to me, again, personal standard.

fair on waiting, Smith will probably drop a few more average points.

Viv again had a Great tour of Pakistan and did very well in one at home vs Imran as well, but he averages 42 vs Pakistan and 46.7 when Imran played. That's without a shred of doubt excellent, but I won't say blown away the opposition pacer/completely dominated them; especially since Imran drew 3 series vs them. Same for Hadlee really, except he as well won one and Viv went missing in that. Again, not saying Viv's output against them is lackluster or he needed to do something more to justify his stance, just won't call it obliteration given their success, anymore than Gavaskar obliterated Holding and Marshall in India.

 

[Johan]

Viv again had a Great tour of Pakistan and did very well in one at home vs Imran as well, but he averages 42 vs Pakistan and 46.7 when Imran played. That's without a shred of doubt excellent, but I won't say blown away the opposition pacer/completely dominated them; especially since Imran drew 3 series vs them. Same for Hadlee really, except he as well won one and Viv went missing in that. Again, not saying Viv's output against them is lackluster or he needed to do something more to justify his stance, just won't call it obliteration given their success, anymore than Gavaskar obliterated Holding and Marshall in India.

His bad series against Imran comes in the 1970s when Imran wasn't really anybody, atleast not until the India series where he tore it up in Eden Gardens, what does he average in games involving prime Imran aka 80s Imran who was practically a cheat code? regardless, I'm not gonna make another thread about Viv here simply because we disagree on his placement, kinda tired of discussing Viv atm.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

If Smith can keep doing what he’s doing atm for another 2-3 years, I think he’ll surpass Viv and Lara for me

Don’t think he’ll ever reach Tendulkar or Sobers though

 

[Johan]

if he surpasses Viv and Lara he already reached Tendulkar

 

[peterhrt]

I'd say Hutton's record is as flawless as Marshall.

Hutton was dropped for one Test after the first two matches of the 1948 home series against Australia after looking uncomfortable and out of form. This despite Miller being unable to bowl in the second Test.

The strain caused by the 1954 tour to West Indies effectively finished him as a top-class batsman although he continued for another year as captain.

 

[Johan]

The strain caused by the 1954 tour to West Indies effectively finished him as a top-class batsman although he continued for another year as captain.

do you mean as in on-field stress captaining the side against the West Indies or off field stress with Trueman and the rest of the team and all the filklore surrounding the series? a lot of what I read about the tour seems to imply it was a politically frustrating tour for him.

 

[peterhrt]

do you mean as in on-field stress captaining the side against the West Indies or off field stress with Trueman and the rest of the team and all the filklore surrounding the series? a lot of what I read about the tour seems to imply it was a politically frustrating tour for him.

Politically is the right word. MCC was effectively a diplomatic arm of the Foreign Office. The tensions created by Britain's colonial legacy required sensitive handling on cricket tours or wider problems ensued. Captains were chosen as much for their political awareness and diplomatic skills as for playing ability, usually more so. That was the logic behind amateur captains and the reason why many at Lord's, and in government, didn't want Hutton in charge in the Caribbean.

Hutton, the ultra-professional, wanted to win at all costs. On the field he was an effective captain, never giving the opposition an inch. But there was a lot more to these tours than winning on the field. Hutton wasn't trained, or particularly interested, in the political nuances of the region. He saw his job as winning cricket matches, nothing more. That would be fine today, but it wasn't back then. He was placed in an impossible position without adequate support.

 

[Johan]

Politically is the right word. MCC was effectively a diplomatic arm of the Foreign Office. The tensions created by Britain's colonial legacy required sensitive handling on cricket tours or wider problems ensued. Captains were chosen as much for their political awareness and diplomatic skills as for playing ability, usually more so. That was the logic behind amateur captains and the reason why many at Lord's, and in government, didn't want Hutton in charge in the Caribbean.

Hutton, the ultra-professional, wanted to win at all costs. On the field he was an effective captain, never giving the opposition an inch. But there was a lot more to these tours than winning on the field. Hutton wasn't trained, or particularly interested, in the political nuances of the region. He saw his job as winning cricket matches, nothing more. That would be fine today, but it wasn't back then. He was placed in an impossible position without adequate support.

sheesh, sounds like an absolute nightmare for an Individual to be in and my respect for Hutton increases due to the line I boldened, sounds like the right attitude to the game even if it was awkward and not acceptable back in 1954