Leading ODI Wicket takers .

[Gotchya]

By playing the Australians every 2 years he was facing stronger opposition than most players had 2 more often than most players. Well at least till the late 1980s.

West Indies were tough opposition then NOT Australia. Most players had to play the Windies then. Performance against them is the real yardstick. You may have said that for the pre Windie era to be true.

 

[Rik]

West Indies were tough opposition then NOT Australia. Most players had to play the Windies then. Performance against them is the real yardstick. You may have said that for the pre Windie era to be true.

Good point. Botham's stats against the WIndies in his Test Career are as follows:

20 Matches, 792 Runs at 21.40 H/S 81, 61 Wickets at 35.18 B/B 8/103

Kapil Dev's:

25 Matches, 1079 Runs at 30.82 H/S 126*, 54 Wickets at 24.89 B/B 9/83

Richard Hadlee's:

10 Matches, 389 Runs at 32.41 H/S 103, 51 Wickets at 22.03 B/B 6/50

Imran Khan's:

18 Matches, 775 Runs at 27.67 H/S 123, 80 Wickets at 21.18 B/B 7/80

Now these stats show that all the players have good records against a team rated as the strongest ever, except Botham who's record is poor.

But looking at his career, Botham was prolific against 2 opponents, India (for which Kapil Dev played) and New Zealand (who had Richard Hadlee).

Botham vs India: 14 Matches, 1201 Runs at 70.64 H/S 208, 59 Wickets at 26.40 B/B 7/48

Botham vs New Zealand: 15 Matches, 846 Runs at 40.28 H/S 138, 64 Wickets at 23.43 B/B 6/34

Pretty impressive against teams who had 2 of the best ever bowlers and India with some quality spinners.

Botham played 36 Matches against Australia in his career, more than any of the other players on the list, and this Australian lineup had Dennis Lillee leading a strong bowling attack.

In comparison Hadlee played 23 matches against the Aussies in his career, Kapil Dev 20, Imran Khan 18.

Botham may not be the best all-rounder on stats, but his ability to turn a match on it's head and perform when needed was unparrelled. If you take out the time he was captain you get more impressive picture, although if you took the time Imran was captain then his record looks less impressive, not least for the fact that he played more matches as captain than just a player in his career. The difference (Batting Average 25.43, Bowling 25.53 as player vs 52.34 and 20.26 as captain) is quite astounding.

Also you said Australia were not the tough opposition, maybe not, but you could hardly describe them as weak.

Hope this helps. I know we will never know who would be the best as they all played for different teams and at slightly different times, but actually if you take away quite a few of the variables you get a similer sort of player, excluding Hadlee of course as he was more of a bowling all-rounder who batted in the lower order.

 

[Gotchya]

Botham did quite well against that side though. Not many others did.

vs the West Indies (Home + Away)

Ian Botham 20 792 81 21.40 0 4 61 8/103 35.18 3 19 0


Kapil Dev 25 1079 126* 30.82 3 4 89 9/83 24.89 4 17 0


Imran Khan 18 775 123 27.67 1 3 80 7/80 21.18 6 4 0


Decide which one was it.

 

[Rik]

vs the West Indies (Home + Away)

Ian Botham 20 792 81 21.40 0 4 61 8/103 35.18 3 19 0


Kapil Dev 25 1079 126* 30.82 3 4 89 9/83 24.89 4 17 0


Imran Khan 18 775 123 27.67 1 3 80 7/80 21.18 6 4 0


Decide which one was it.

Sorry mate, I added more to my post, disregard what I said and look at my edited post...(Note to self...write it in notepad or just don't post it 1st then change it hugely otherwise people will comment on it...)

 

[aussie_beater]

But looking at his career, Botham was prolific against 2 opponents, India (for which Kapil Dev played) and New Zealand (who had Richard Hadlee).

Those two teams' bowling attacks had only these two bowlers as world class bowlers and the rest were pretty much ordinary in the eighties, when these all rounders played most of their cricket.

During the eighties India's spinners were gone and it lost a few test series' at home to England, WI and Pakistan which normally didn't happen earlier as the spinners were all over any touring side.

The same for NZ..Hadlee was the lone warrior in the bowling department.

 

[Rik]

Those two teams' bowling attacks had only these two bowlers as world class bowlers and the rest were pretty much ordinary in the eighties, when these all rounders played most of their cricket.

During the eighties India's spinners were gone and it lost a few test series' at home to England, WI and Pakistan which normally didn't happen earlier as the spinners were all over any touring side.

The same for NZ..Hadlee was the lone warrior in the bowling department.

What about Venkat? There was another spinner too but I can't remember his name. Not bad players at all.

As for New Zealand they had Chatfield, Lance Cairns and John Bracewell who were useful. The threat of Hadlee was allways there, and Botham seens to be one of the few players to do well against him.

 

[Gotchya]

But looking at his career, Botham was prolific against 2 opponents, India (for which Kapil Dev played) and New Zealand (who had Richard Hadlee).

How is that proving anything ?

Botham vs India: 14 Matches, 1201 Runs at 70.64 H/S 208, 59 Wickets at 26.40 B/B 7/48

Botham vs New Zealand: 15 Matches, 846 Runs at 40.28 H/S 138, 64 Wickets at 23.43 B/B 6/34

Pretty impressive against teams who had 2 of the best ever bowlers and India with some quality spinners.

Nada. The best ever allrounder for India, and the best ever bowler for New zealand. Internationally they will face competition form the likes of Marshall, Imran, Holding......
And these guys have similar impressive stats against India and/or New zealand. But it proves nothing.

Botham played 36 Matches against Australia in his career, more than any of the other players on the list, and this Australian lineup had Dennis Lillee leading a strong bowling attack.

Maybe more yes but that doesn't prove that he did well or better then others..Austarlia were not what they are now. Using them as a benchmark is wrong. England were relatively equal with Australia then. So your point doesn't hold water.

Botham may not be the best all-rounder on stats, but his ability to turn a match on it's head and perform when needed was unparrelled.

Sorry but that may be true for the English team. You are mixing the value of Botham to England and his International standing.

Also you said Australia were not the tough opposition, maybe not, but you could hardly describe them as weak.

But easily equatable to England. Not the case with the West Indies.

I know we will never know who would be the best as they all played for different teams and at slightly different times, but actually if you take away quite a few of the variables you get a similer sort of player, excluding Hadlee of course as he was more of a bowling all-rounder who batted in the lower order.

Imran started off in 1971 (started playing good cricket much later), Botham started in 77-78, Kapil started in 78. They played exactly the same opposition, in more or less similar conditions. Which is why there are not many variables involved. Which is why it is easier to draw conclusions.

 

[aussie_beater]

What about Venkat? There was another spinner too but I can't remember his name. Not bad players at all.

As for New Zealand they had Chatfield, Lance Cairns and John Bracewell who were useful. The threat of Hadlee was allways there, and Botham seens to be one of the few players to do well against him.

Venkat played only 7 matches in the eighties till 1983 and 5 out of those were in the WI and it was at the twilight of his career.He was not the same bowler anymore.

Maninder Singh was the other left arm spinner who played for India in the eighties and was very good towards the later part of eighties but that was it.The rest were part timers like Ravi Shastri and at times Shivlal Yadav who was an offie who played quite a few matches but acted mostly as a support bowler.

 

[Anil]

Venkat played only 7 matches in the eighties till 1983 and 5 out of those were in the WI and it was at the twilight of his career.He was not the same bowler anymore.

Maninder Singh was the other left arm spinner who played for India in the eighties and was very good towards the later part of eighties but that was it.The rest were part timers like Ravi Shastri and at times Shivlal Yadav who was an offie who played quite a few matches but acted mostly as a support bowler.

Dilip Doshi was also there for a while before Gavaskar's politics cut short what looked like a very promising career. Still, compared to the riches of the 60s and 70s, the spin cupboard was pretty bare.

 

[aussie_beater]

Dilip Doshi was also there for a while before Gavaskar's politics cut short what looked like a very promising career. Still, compared to the riches of the 60s and 70s, the spin cupboard was pretty bare.

Yes I missed Doshi.He was quite a good left armer and was the leading spinner in the Indian team after Bedi retired and till the Pakistan tour of 1982 when he had a serious row with Gavaskar and he just faded out after that.

Maninder Singh was the best left armer India had, after Bedi.He was very good but he also faded out in the nineties for reasons still unclear to me when Azhar became the captain and Kumble's fortunes were on the ascendency.

 

[Anil]

Yes I missed Doshi.He was quite a good left armer and was the leading spinner in the Indian team after Bedi retired and till the Pakistan tour of 1982 when he had a serious row with Gavaskar and he just faded out after that.

Maninder Singh was the best left armer India had, after Bedi.He was very good but he also faded out in the nineties for reasons still unclear to me when Azhar became the captain and Kumble's fortunes were on the ascendency.

Doshi was an offspinner.

 

[aussie_beater]

Doshi was an offspinner.

Are you talking about Dilip Doshi who used to play for Bengal ? He was a left arm orthodox spinner. I have seen him bowl.

 

[Anil]

Are you talking about Dilip Doshi who used to play for Bengal ? He was a left arm orthodox spinner. I have seen him bowl.

oops, sorry!! You are right. He was a left arm orthodox spinner.

 

[Rik]

Imran started off in 1971 (started playing good cricket much later), Botham started in 77-78, Kapil started in 78. They played exactly the same opposition, in more or less similar conditions. Which is why there are not many variables involved. Which is why it is easier to draw conclusions.

There are loads of variables such as not being able to play against their respective teams, Botham's flamboyant lifestyle, Imran only showing form after he became Captain, Kapil playing most of the time on Indian Shirt Fronts....

And no I am not mistaking Botham's value to the England team and generally...Didn't Wisden vote him number 16 in the Best Ever Players? That doesn't seem like a player who was only of any value to his team...

 

[Rik]

How is that proving anything ?

Well mate, it takes a lot to bowl on those Indian Shirt Fronts...and averaging 26 with the ball and 70 with the bat doesn't exactly show a lack of ability in that area...

 

[sasnoz]

i would not go by wisden as a absolute certainty
they favour english because its a english magazine but thats natural
plus ian chappel thinks bothams crap he pretty much said it on tv
i think bothams great but no better than dev i would say there neck and neck

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

ian chappel thinks bothams crap

Well, Chappell should be committed immediately!

 

[Rik]

i would not go by wisden as a absolute certainty
they favour english because its a english magazine but thats natural
plus ian chappel thinks bothams crap he pretty much said it on tv
i think bothams great but no better than dev i would say there neck and neck

Botham and Dev are close but I would say Botham nudges it with his Miracle 140* odd and 5-10 later in the series. Chappel...enough said :P

 

[marc71178]

Botham's flamboyant lifestyle

Imran was hardly reserved...

 

[Wazztodd]

plus ian chappel thinks bothams crap

Well, then he must be I suppose. I always thought Botham was brilliant, all those matches he won singlehandedly, (name a better peformance than his effort in '83 at Leeds) brilliant strokeplay, intelligent bowling and remarkable fielding...but if Chappelli says he crap, I'll have to change my mind.

Chappells opinions are never biased in any way, God forbid he just doesn't like the guy.
If Botham is crap, how good was Ian then? Or Ian's brother Greg? Or pretty much everyone one else who's ever played at International level? I thought they were all brilliant players to get to that level, but apparently thry're crap. Geez, I'm quitting the game. My abilities can only be classed as horrendous then... :duh: