Larwood 'medium paced'

[fredfertang]

What would have been far better would have been it get someone with cricket ability (Ponting) to face Lee bowling body line with a body line field.

Indeed, though Lee is not the right man to replicate Larwood, he's far too tall - perhaps Lasith Malinga off 20 yards?

 

[Goughy]

Indeed, though Lee is not the right man to replicate Larwood, he's far too tall - perhaps Lasith Malinga off 20 yards?

Duncan Spencer off 18?

 

[watson]

Adam Zwar investigated recently exactly how fast Larwood bowled in this show:

Bodyline : ABC TV

I think the conclusion, based on footage of him bowling at Adelaide, taking the frames, reference points in the background and building a 3D model was the range of 137 - 147kph.

The show then had Zwar face Brett Lee with a bodyline field armed with just 1930s protective equipment and bat.

I've just re- watched Tim Bergin's report. Here is the relevant quote;

Typical ball speed was 137 kph to 147 kph in that range, always a bit of error. High 140s IS a fast bowler..........there's no doubt that if it was 147 then it is plausible that he could have bowled in the 150s.

Therefore, if we take contemporary accounts (1890s to 1930s) at their face-value then bowlers like Kortright, Jones, and Cotter must have hit the 150s mark regularly to be considered mathmatically faster than Larwood. Either that, or they achieved more lift and bounce to give the false impression to the observer that they were mathmatically faster.

Incidently, Brett Lee was a good choice of bowler to duplicate Harold Larwood I reckon. Sure Lee is taller, but their respective bowling actions have far more in common than not. That is, both bowled with a low action and their chests slightly open. Bowlers with classical actions like Dennis Lillee or Glenn McGrath for example would be too upright, and Malinga way too roundarmed.

As a rough guess, and to stick my neck out, if Larwood replaced Lee in the Australian squad during the 2000s then he would have had similar successes and a similar Test match bowling Average - such were their similarities.

 

[the big bambino]

Speculation of course but I wouldn't rate Lee much at all.

 

[silentstriker]

Adam Zwar investigated recently exactly how fast Larwood bowled in this show:

Bodyline : ABC TV

I think the conclusion, based on footage of him bowling at Adelaide, taking the frames, reference points in the background and building a 3D model was the range of 137 - 147kph.

The show then had Zwar face Brett Lee with a bodyline field armed with just 1930s protective equipment and bat.

Not sure if I buy those speeds, honestly. I'd like to see actual calculations because I'd be surprised if the number of frames were there to calculate the speed to within 10kph...

That would mean Larwood was faster or as faster than the bowlers in the 1979 fastest bowling competition, on par with Jeff Thompson. It's possible of course, but I think the methodology needs to be explained more.

 

[Goughy]

Not sure if I buy those speeds, honestly. I'd like to see actual calculations because I'd be surprised if the number of frames were there to calculate the speed to within 10kph...

That would mean Larwood was faster or as faster than the bowlers in the 1979 fastest bowling competition, on par with Jeff Thompson. It's possible of course, but I think the methodology needs to be explained more.

Out of interest, have you watched it yet before questioning the methodology? No probs if you have, just asking.

 

[silentstriker]

Out of interest, have you watched it yet before questioning the methodology? No probs if you have, just asking.

No, that's why I am asking for the calculations used.

 

[watson]

Not sure if I buy those speeds, honestly. I'd like to see actual calculations because I'd be surprised if the number of frames were there to calculate the speed to within 10kph...

That would mean Larwood was faster or as faster than the bowlers in the 1979 fastest bowling competition, on par with Jeff Thompson. It's possible of course, but I think the methodology needs to be explained more.

You'll have to watch the documentary SS - Bodyline : ABC TV

It's actually very enjoyable, and available on Apple TV if you have it.

 

[silentstriker]

Cool, I'll get on it.

 

[Burgey]

It's interesting reading these accounts, but I think a note of caution is always warranted.

There's a temptation, even at lower levels, to look back on blokes you face when you're younger as being rapid compared with blokes you faced or watched later on, but it ain't necessarily so. To look at it from the perspective of even a very average player like me, I faced blokes in our A grade comp when I first started playing and opening the batting who I thought were really quick (and tbf they weren't slouches, but they seemed full on quick at the time).

When I was about 30 and been playing for ten years, I faced a bloke who'd just come into the comp, and when he measured out his run up my mate said to me "This bloke is pretty sharp, but he sprays it around". He was right - he was sharp but didn't seem overly express or anything and never got me out for the few seasons I played against him, but I have no doubt he was faster than the blokes I faced when I was younger. He just didn't seem it, because you're a bit older and know your game a bit better, and like these observers from decades earlier, you don't have the benefit of radar guns to confirm or deny your impressions.

Anyway, the blokes I faced when I was younger and who frightened me had a bit about them, but for whatever reasons never kicked on. The other bloke who I played with a bit of respect but who didn't really put the fear of God into me opened the bowling for Australia.

Perceptions are often deceptive.

 

[the big bambino]

Ok you can't tell a story like that and not tell who the test bowler was. Well I guess you can but who was he anyway?

 

[Top_Cat]

Dougeh!

That said, reckon Dougeh picked up some pace from his mid-20's. Mate of mine faced him in the ATSIC Chairman's XI game around 2001 and said he wasn't express then but he's been bowling wheels for the last few years.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah that's true, he did pick up pace, probably quite a bit too once he got into proper full time training and finess regimes (quickly abandoned, it seems).

He went from playing park cricket one season to winning a Shield with NSW the next. Was quite a rise.

 

[Burgey]

Ok you can't tell a story like that and not tell who the test bowler was. Well I guess you can but who was he anyway?

I was going to say Glenn Maxwell but that would have ruined the story :-)

There have been few funnier things I've seen in my playing time than Dougeh walking off the field at our home ground nearly in tears after two older blokes in our side who'd played a lot of first grade absolutely destroyed him. Belted him onto the road, over some houses. Poor kid didn't know what to do, because he'd never been treated like that. He grew up being the bloke. He wasn't being a spoiled brat or anything, he genuinely didn't know how to cope with it. The two blokes had a combined 30 odd years of first grade experience, mind you. He gave them a bit of lip when they came in, and when the innings finished, the older one of them who was about 42 at the time just said "You're a nice kid Dougie, but I don't rate you, You're poo".

Guess the Rug had the last laugh.

 

[the big bambino]

Cheers. Nice insight into the making of a test cricketer.

 

[Burgey]

I was no more than an interested spectator in it all, having already got out earlier on

Again though, it's perspective, isn't it? Those blokes had played established quicks, one of them played against Wayne Daniel when he was young, the other against all the Shield and NSW based Test bowlers from pretty much the late 70s/ 80s onwards. So some young kid with decent wheels was nothing to them. But I reckon if I'd faced him at 17 or 18 with a two piece ball on astro I'd have likely **** myself.

 

[the big bambino]

Which may explain why the average cricket fan tends to be overawed by pace alone bcos we can atleast imagine how frightening it would be to face. Whereas for someone with experience its a bowler's skill in getting flight/seam/swing/bounce allied to a command of line and length that will disturb them. Anyway yours is a fair point and by the by good on Bollinger for being able to absorb such a massive blow to his ego and achieve what he did.

On the other matter I found the newspaper article comparing bowlers and their speeds. Larwood and Willis were listed at 96 and 90mph as I remembered. I was most interested in those 2 as they were the only bowlers on the list that weren't measured by a speed gun. The journo mentioned they were assessed by measuring them frame by frame. Annoying he didn't go into more detail and of course I can't vouch for the accuracy except to say the measurements were done by people who'd have more of an idea than me. The most suss reading was Kluesner at around 92 or 93mph and I can't ever recall him getting anywhere near that speed. Yet he was measured by a speed gun so maybe even the modern way of measuring speeds can leave you wondering about its accuracy.

 

[Migara]

The most suss reading was Kluesner at around 92 or 93mph and I can't ever recall him getting anywhere near that speed. Yet he was measured by a speed gun so maybe even the modern way of measuring speeds can leave you wondering about its accuracy.

Klusener was touch quicker than Donald on his debut against India. Brett Schultz was even touch quicker than Klusener.

 

[the big bambino]

Schultz was a beast from reports, as I never saw him, but injuries cut his career off. Surprised that Lance was that quick. Maybe injuries slowed him down too but his batting would still allow him to pursue an international career even as his bowling degraded.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah it was a great shame Schultz never played as often as he should have. He was a weapon.