Kallis Vs Sobers

[Precambrian]

To be fair though, you removed India from Sobers's record but not West Indies from Kallis's record, despite the fact that India during Sobers's career had a harder bowling attack to make runs against.

During Sobers's career, India's bowlers managed a collective average of 34.63.
During Kallis's career, WI's bowlers have so far managed a collective average of 37.30.

If India during Sobers's career were a 'minnow' as far as their bowling went, then the same must be said for the modern day West Indies bowling unit.

Fair point indeed. However I'll be happy if you provide the linky. I am no way doubting your finding. But just to see it myself.

 

[Precambrian]

Bedi and Prasanna were both highly effective in India, especially in the second-innings, and Chandra is after Kapil Dev India's second-greatest matchwinner overseas.

They were good in India, but as good as good in matchwinning?

Chandra was gun overseas in England.

 

[Prince EWS]

Fair point indeed. However I'll be happy if you provide the linky. I am no way doubting your finding. But just to see it myself.

West Indian bowling during Kallis's career, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe excluded
Indian bowling during Sobers's career

 

[Precambrian]

Bedi and Chandra both averages under 30. To compare the Indian attack of he 60s with the Bangladeshi attack of the 00s is ridiculous.

Their record overseas mate. Chandra was gun in England. But apart from that India used to play even on greentops with three spinners. Says about how strong their bowling attack was then.

 

[Precambrian]

West Indian bowling during Kallis's career, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe excluded
Indian bowling during Sobers's career

Cricinfo has stopped working for me.... Thanks for the link anyways.

 

[Athlai]

West Indian bowling during Kallis's career, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe excluded
Indian bowling during Sobers's career

Mystery Draft just quietly

 

[zaremba]

Bedi and Prasanna were both highly effective in India, especially in the second-innings, and Chandra is after Kapil Dev India's second-greatest matchwinner overseas.

I thought spin bowling was "mostly useless" during that period?

Bedi was only successful at home and in the second-innings; ...; and Chandra, well, he was no more than good - certainly not outstanding.

 

[Precambrian]

West Indian bowling during Kallis's career, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe excluded
Indian bowling during Sobers's career

Again, Is that is for the overall period. What is it when segregated opposition wise and home and away? Am not asking you to do this, but unfortunately as I said in OT, my net access is suddenly CW only.

 

[Prince EWS]

Again, Is that is for the overall period.

It's for the respective periods of their careers. So the India/Sobers one is 54-74 and the West Indies/Kallis one is 95-now.

 

[aussie]

This is definately another one of those arguments that we have had over the years...

 

[Slifer]

Sobers clearly and here's why. Stats aside Sobers is one of the very few all rounders who actually brought all of his skills to bear at the same time on more than a few occasions. Like the Series in England when here scored 700+ runs 20 + wkts and 10+ catches.

 

[Evermind]

I voted Kallis simply because I believe post-Packer cricket is a superior, faster game, and because it annoys me how people here discuss all the old cricketers like they've seen them personally or on TV. All they know about them is from a couple of books and statsguru. I also think Kallis is criminally underrated on CW and world cricket in general, and is probably the greatest (along with Murali) cricket player playing at the moment.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Batting:Sobers>>Kallis
Bowling:Kallis=Sobers
Overall:Sobers>>Kallis

 

[Precambrian]

I voted Kallis simply because I believe post-Packer cricket is a superior, faster game, and because it annoys me how people here discuss all the old cricketers like they've seen them personally or on TV. All they know about them is from a couple of books and statsguru. I also think Kallis is criminally underrated on CW and world cricket in general, and is probably the greatest (along with Murali) cricket player playing at the moment.

Thanks for making me last again

 

[Jamee999]

Sobers did more and he did it better.

 

[zaremba]

I voted Kallis simply because I believe post-Packer cricket is a superior, faster game, and because it annoys me how people here discuss all the old cricketers like they've seen them personally or on TV. All they know about them is from a couple of books and statsguru. I also think Kallis is criminally underrated on CW and world cricket in general, and is probably the greatest (along with Murali) cricket player playing at the moment.

But these are not reasons to vote for Kallis as being better than Sobers. They are reasons not to participate in the poll at all.

To be fair, Sobers' career is hardly shrouded in the mists of time. Plenty of people have watched both him and Kallis play and can therefore attempt a direct, first-hand comparison (albeit not on CW - most of the people here are too young). We are not talking about the 1870s, we're talking about the 1960s and 1970s.

The fact is that Sobers was, at the time when he played, recognised by just about everyone as the outstanding player of his time. That suggests that the Sobers-adulation isn't just rose-tinted restrospection.

Few people would suggest that Kallis is the outstanding player of his generation. One of the very best, yes, but he didn't by any means overshadow, for instance, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist, Murali etc. This is not, of course, conclusive evidence that Sobers was better than Kallis - it's possible, if unlikely, that these half dozen or so modern-day players were all better than Sobers - but it does indicate that those who rate Sobers more highly are not just afflicted by misty-eyed hindsight.

A few years ago Wisden selected its top 5 players of the 20th Century. Sobers was number 2. The panel was (IIRC) 100 top cricket writers. You will find it difficult, I think, to write that appraisal off as some kind of mass hysteria. Why write off the equivalent opinions of CW contributors - less esteemed though they may be - quite so glibly as you have?

 

[Slifer]

Well said. I for one consider Sobers to be the better of the 2 and the greatest all rounder (opinion). For me its close between: Sobers, Imran, Kallis and Miller. In cricket the only undisputed fact is that Don Bradman is the greatest batsman of all time. All other titles: greatest bowler (spin and fast), Wicket-keeper/wkt keeper batsman, captain, fielder, all rounder, team etc. are highly disputable!!

 

[JBH001]

Sobers, its closer than some may expect, but its still an easy choice. Nothing against Kallis of course, he is a giant (literally and figuratively).

Its certainly a more worthy debate than Sobers v Miller or Sobers v Imran though.

A few years ago Wisden selected its top 5 players of the 20th Century. Sobers was number 2. The panel was (IIRC) 100 top cricket writers. You will find it difficult, I think, to write that appraisal off as some kind of mass hysteria.

This is a great point, zaremba.

 

[fredfertang]

Bradman thought Sobers 254 for "A World XI" against Australia in 71/72 the finest innings ever played in Australia

Sobers must also have been an accomplished amateur surgeon - he was born with an extra finger on each hand and removed the surplus digits himself!

 

[archie mac]

This poll has re-established my confidence in the knowledge of CW posters

Now if we can rate Fot a little higher, and rank O'Reilly above Warne, and consider Clem the best left handed batsman for Aust and (I hope Beleg does not read this thread)