Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[Uppercut]

Because essentially, Your job is to be score more runs not be more skilled. If an exceptionally talented batsman consistently destroyed the 2 ATG bowlers of an attack and scored 55 runs, while a batsman with a very ungraceful technique in the same side defended the ATG bowlers and waited for the part-timers to come on so he could score his runs and scored 65 runs, and if they did this over a 10 - match test series and if both the ATG bowlers said the first batsman was the best batsman they bowled to while the second batsman was not dominant enough to be a great bat, I couldn't care less, I'd pick the second batsman every time.

Cricket might be a human game but what really matters more than the glorious display of batsmanship which celebrates the game of cricket(yada,yada,yada) is the scoring one more bloody run.

Teja, WAG.

 

[M0rphin3]

We actually went through this a while back for Dhoni and found it to be a bit ridiculous- basically he was finishing not-out so often because he kept winning India games!

Not to take anything away from him, but I've sometimes felt he's promoting/demoting himself in the order according to the situations to boost his average. Maybe just me though.

 

[akilana]

Haha yes they do. If someone is not-out it means the runs will be added to their overall total without an additional dismissal = inflated average

Not outs over a long period time won't inflate the average too much. In Kallis's case, he has 38 hundreds to Ponting's 39 in less number of matches so it isn't fair to argue his average is inflated by not outs. If he scores as many as Ponting and stays not out, it's a credit to him.

 

[JBH001]

By that logic in ODIs all players should have SR's of 50 and play like it's test cricket just so the bowlers can't dismiss them, hence making the innings total an epic 150/0.

That's a strawman as clearly a batsmen who consistently batted in this manner would be dropped. It's a far cry from a batsman who goes at a good SR and still has a good average or even an exceptional one simply because he does not get out. The job of a batsman is to score runs and not get out. You can't achieve the first without the second.

 

[Blaze 18]

There is no comparison between Ricky Ponting and Jacques Kallis in ODIs. The former is head and shoulders above the latter. If one were to make a list of the best ODI batsmen post 1990, Kallis would struggle to make the top twenty (and yes, I know he has a very impressive average).

 

[JBH001]

No disagreement here. Ponting comfortably the greater batsman - in both formats - for mine.

 

[akilana]

There is no comparison between Ricky Ponting and Jacques Kallis in ODIs. The former is head and shoulders above the latter. If one were to make a list of the best ODI batsmen post 1990, Kallis would struggle to make the top twenty (and yes, I know he has a very impressive average).

Statistically you can compare the both. It's not like Ponting's strike rate is in the 90s like Gilly or Jayasurya

Kallis averages 46, SR 73
Ponting averages 43, SR 81

I'd definitely pick Ponting's in ODIs but it's far-fetched to say there's no comparison. The difference between them isn't much compared to the difference between Ponting and Sachin.

 

[Blaze 18]

Statistically you can compare the both. It's not like Ponting's strike rate is in the 90s like Gilly or Jayasurya

Kallis averages 46, SR 73
Ponting averages 43, SR 81

I'd definitely pick Ponting's in ODIs but it's far-fetched to say there's no comparison. The difference between them isn't much compared to the difference between Ponting and Sachin.

Well, statistically Ajit Agarkar can be compared to Waqar Younis in ODIs. Are they on the same plane ? No, not even close.

Simply put, the numbers are misleading. This match epitomises Jacques Kallis' career for mine. If someone looks at the scorecard twenty years down the line, they may be led to believe that Jacques Kallis played a brilliant innings and the rest of the team screwed up; but was it the case ? At no point during South Africa's chase did they have a realistic possibility of overhauling the target set by India. Jacques Kallis' strike rate and number of runs scored will not tell you that.

If I were an opposition captain, I would always be nervous with Ricky Ponting at the crease. The same cannot be the said about Jacques Kallis, unfortunately. So, yes, I would have Ricky Ponting over Jacques Kallis by a rather comfortable margin. Like I said, you would be hard-pressed to have him (Kallis) in the top twenty ODI batsmen post 1990.

 

[Ruckus]

So you wouldn't criticise the batsman for not getting out, you'd criticise them for having a low Sr. Being dismissed itself is not a positive.

Exactly. So the statement "not getting out is never a bad thing" is wrong, it should be "not getting out is never a bad thing, providing the player is performing in a way which increases the chance of team success".

Not outs over a long period time won't inflate the average too much. In Kallis's case, he has 38 hundreds to Ponting's 39 in less number of matches so it isn't fair to argue his average is inflated by not outs. If he scores as many as Ponting and stays not out, it's a credit to him.

Yeah I already said in tests it is pretty insignificant, and I wasn't raising the point on it's own merits in the first place. In ODI's however, I definately think the amount of not-outs exaggerates Kallis' average compared to Ponting. I'm not saying that like it's a negative thing, but if someone brings up the point that Kallis appears to have a better record than Ponting in ODIs because of his superior average, that accounts for it.

That's a strawman as clearly a batsmen who consistently batted in this manner would be dropped. It's a far cry from a batsman who goes at a good SR and still has a good average or even an exceptional one simply because he does not get out. The job of a batsman is to score runs and not get out. You can't achieve the first without the second.

It's not a strawman, because all he said was "not getting out is never a bad thing" (there are no exceptions listed there, it is completely general). I disagree that the "job of a batsman is to score runs and not get out". The job of a batsmen is to play in a way which maximises the chance of success for the team. To score runs and not get out is a prerequisite, but depending on the match situation often additional things are required. E.g. in ODIs the SR at which you play often determines the outcome of the game. In certain situations in tests, if you are not attacking the bowlers (lots of dot-balls etc.) often unnecessary pressure is put on the other batsmen etc. It isn't as simple as just scoring runs and not getting out, it is about judging the match situation and playing accordingly.

 

[Mike5181]

Kallis' SR in one day internationals is 73 and it will likely continue to increase until he retires based on the last few years. So he is not Mark Richardson slow. In saying that still Ponting > Kallis as an ODI batsmen. As an ODI player? Now that's another matter.

 

[Mike5181]

Well, statistically Ajit Agarkar can be compared to Waqar Younis in ODIs. Are they on the same plane ? No, not even close.

Simply put, the numbers are misleading. This match epitomises Jacques Kallis' career for mine. If someone looks at the scorecard twenty years down the line, they may be led to believe that Jacques Kallis played a brilliant innings and the rest of the team screwed up; but was it the case ? At no point during South Africa's chase did they have a realistic possibility of overhauling the target set by India. Jacques Kallis' strike rate and number of runs scored will not tell you that.

If I were an opposition captain, I would always be nervous with Ricky Ponting at the crease. The same cannot be the said about Jacques Kallis, unfortunately. So, yes, I would have Ricky Ponting over Jacques Kallis by a rather comfortable margin. Like I said, you would be hard-pressed to have him (Kallis) in the top twenty ODI batsmen post 1990.

Erm i don't know about that match tbh. Kallis got 73 off 54 balls?

5th Match, Group C: India v South Africa at Gros Islet, May 2, 2010 | Cricket Commentary | ESPN Cricinfo

Look at the commentary a couple of overs before Kallis got out he was hitting sixes and going for slogs. Blame can't be put on him in that match especially when he bowled 4 overs as well with 1-30 at less than 8rpo. In the context of that match he was the only reason they really got close in the first place.

 

[akilana]

Well, statistically Ajit Agarkar can be compared to Waqar Younis in ODIs. Are they on the same plane ? No, not even close.

No they're not comparable statistically. Where did you pull that from?

Simply put, the numbers are misleading. This match epitomises Jacques Kallis' career for mine. If someone looks at the scorecard twenty years down the line, they may be led to believe that Jacques Kallis played a brilliant innings and the rest of the team screwed up; but was it the case ? At no point during South Africa's chase did they have a realistic possibility of overhauling the target set by India. Jacques Kallis' strike rate and number of runs scored will not tell you that.

nah that's a slogfest. Discounted. If you dig more in to t20 and IPL, it'd show you Raina to be a better limited overs player than Sachin.

Anyways his role in his side in t20 is to play till the end with a decent strike rate. Did you notice the other opener took 14 balls to score 8 and Smith wasn't getting runs at the rate Kallis was getting his runs.. It was more of a team failure than his. If he was ****, do you think they'd have selected him in the first place and put him at the top? There was a reason why he wasn't picked before but playing in IPL, he improved his game and got back into the t20 side.

If I were an opposition captain, I would always be nervous with Ricky Ponting at the crease. The same cannot be the said about Jacques Kallis, unfortunately. So, yes, I would have Ricky Ponting over Jacques Kallis by a rather comfortable margin. Like I said, you would be hard-pressed to have him (Kallis) in the top twenty ODI batsmen post 1990.

You're entitled to your opinion. If I were an opposition captain, I wouldn't be nervous with either of them.

 

[Hit Wicket]

Erm i don't know about that match tbh. Kallis got 73 off 54 balls?

5th Match, Group C: India v South Africa at Gros Islet, May 2, 2010 | Cricket Commentary | ESPN Cricinfo

Look at the commentary a couple of overs before Kallis got out he was hitting sixes and going for slogs. Blame can't be put on him in that match especially when he bowled 4 overs as well with 1-30 at less than 8rpo. In the context of that match he was the only reason they really got close in the first place.

By the time Kallis started hitting out and showed some intent, the required run rate was in the realms of impossibility at 16 RPO to be sustained over 6 overs - that's a sufficient cushion for even a crap attack like India's.

 

[akilana]

By the time Kallis started hitting out and showed some intent, the required run rate was in the realms of impossibility at 16 RPO to be sustained over 6 overs - that's a sufficient cushion for even a crap attack like India's.

shouldn't that be directed at Smith who was batting with Kallis? I think Kallis was supposed to play a long innings at a good rate and others were asked to get quick runs. It seems only Kallis did his job well and others didn't.

 

[Hit Wicket]

shouldn't that be directed at Smith who was batting with Kallis? I think Kallis was supposed to play a long innings at a good rate and others were asked to get quick runs. It seems only Kallis did his job well and others didn't.

Maybe. But no one is having an argument comparing Smith to Ponting. I am pretty sure Ponting would not have left an attack to 16 RPO off 6 overs if he was in Kallis' place with a struggling partner.

 

[Spark]

By the time Kallis started hitting out and showed some intent, the required run rate was in the realms of impossibility at 16 RPO to be sustained over 6 overs - that's a sufficient cushion for even a crap attack like India's.

Cam White would've done it.

 

[Blaze 18]

No they're not comparable statistically. Where did you pull that from?

Ajit Agarkar | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Waqar Younis | Pakistan Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

nah that's a slogfest. Discounted. If you dig more in to t20 and IPL, it'd show you Raina to be a better limited overs player than Sachin.

Anyways his role in his side in t20 is to play till the end with a decent strike rate. Did you notice the other opener took 14 balls to score 8 and Smith wasn't getting runs at the rate Kallis was getting his runs.. It was more of a team failure than his. If he was ****, do you think they'd have selected him in the first place and put him at the top? There was a reason why he wasn't picked before but playing in IPL, he improved his game and got back into the t20 side.

I used a T20 as an example, but it doesn't detract from the point that I was trying to make.

You're entitled to your opinion. If I were an opposition captain, I wouldn't be nervous with either of them.

Okay

 

[Blaze 18]

Erm i don't know about that match tbh. Kallis got 73 off 54 balls?

5th Match, Group C: India v South Africa at Gros Islet, May 2, 2010 | Cricket Commentary | ESPN Cricinfo

Look at the commentary a couple of overs before Kallis got out he was hitting sixes and going for slogs. Blame can't be put on him in that match especially when he bowled 4 overs as well with 1-30 at less than 8rpo. In the context of that match he was the only reason they really got close in the first place.

Mate, Jacques Kallis hit a couple of sixes when the game was virtually done and dusted. He did just about enough to make his own figures respectable. I reiterate - at no point in that innings were South Africa realistically in the game. Graeme Smith was carrying an injury in that game, and he tried much harder than Kallis. Kallis, as is often the case , was content with taking the ones and letting the required run rate rise to stratospheric levels. AB de Villiers came and tried hard towards the end, but he was left with too much to do. I am fairly confident that South Africa would have come a lot closer to India's total - maybe even overhauled it - had Kallis got out early.

 

[chicane]

Simply put, the numbers are misleading. This match epitomises Jacques Kallis' career for mine. If someone looks at the scorecard twenty years down the line, they may be led to believe that Jacques Kallis played a brilliant innings and the rest of the team screwed up; but was it the case ? At no point during South Africa's chase did they have a realistic possibility of overhauling the target set by India. Jacques Kallis' strike rate and number of runs scored will not tell you that.

This knock was far, far worse. Gibbs had all but sealed it for SA and Kallis' innings managed to undo everything.

1st SF: India v South Africa at Colombo (RPS), Sep 25, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

That said, IMO Kallis is an excellent ODI batsman who plays his role in the team superbly. I think he attracts too much criticism for his steady style of play for having played a small minority of 50+ knocks that weren't good enough for the situation.

I rate Ponting higher but Kallis warrants comparison IMO.

 

[Blaze 18]

This knock was far, far worse. Gibbs had all but sealed it for SA and Kallis' innings managed to undo everything.

1st SF: India v South Africa at Colombo (RPS), Sep 25, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

That said, IMO Kallis is an excellent ODI batsman who plays his role in the team superbly. I think he attracts too much criticism for his steady style of play for having played a small minority of 50+ knocks that weren't good enough for the situation.

I rate Ponting higher but Kallis warrants comparison IMO.

Yeah, I remember that game. India had no right to win that one after Gibbs' innings, but Kallis decided to ruin the party...again.

Look, I think he is a good ODI batsman, but I would struggle to have him in the top twenty ODI batsmen post 1990.

EDIT : Even among South African batsmen, I would have Herschelle Gibbs, Gary Kirsten, Lance Klusener and AB de Villiers above him.