Joe Root V Allan Border

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Something tells me you don't particularly like TOTAB...... Has he said something blasphemous about Woakes??

To give a (probably unnecessarily) earnest answer: mostly just Ashes rivalry. The Aussie captains I've always seen as emblematic of their side and therefore they're particularly fun to poke at a bit. I don't really remember Border playing, other than my Dad saying how great he was, but I remember England getting ground to dust by Waugh/Ponting/Smith enough that I know these guys are The Enemy.

For Border specifically, aside from the added banter value of him being Burgey's favourite player, he is someone who I think gets a lot less scrutiny on CW than other greats (including other prominent Aussies). On paper he seems to be a rich man's Chanderpaul with extra nostalgia points but obviously he's held in way higher regard. Like I say, I can't really remember him playing, just going off his record but on paper he's someone I don't entirely "get" as a top-tier ATG.

 

[Himannv]

a rich man's Chanderpaul with extra nostalgia points

Bloody hell, Squiddie. It must be unusually sunny in England today.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Bloody hell, Squiddie. It must be unusually sunny in England today.

It's snowing.

 

[BazBall21]

It's snowing to be frank.

 

[Johan]

For Border specifically, aside from the added banter value of him being Burgey's favourite player, he is someone who I think gets a lot less scrutiny on CW than other greats (including other prominent Aussies). On paper he seems to be a rich man's Chanderpaul with extra nostalgia points but obviously he's held in way higher regard. Like I say, I can't really remember him playing, just going off his record but on paper he's someone I don't entirely "get" as a top-tier ATG.

The Older the player the less scrutiny they get, isn't that the way? ...unless you're Viv! ...or Maybe Sunny.

 

[sayon basak]

counterpoint, Border's like 5 foot 8, that automatically disqualifies him from any discussion of manliness.

No.

 

[peterhrt]

1981 was a better attack than any Waugh faced too.

There were some poor pitches in England in 1981. Border's average was double that of any of his teammates, apart from Dirk Wellham who only appeared in one match after the series had been decided.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

1981 was a better attack than any Waugh faced too. 1989 and 1993 were truly dreadful attacks. Old Trafford 1997 was an all time classic from Waugh though.

And he was amazing in 1981 vs ATG Botham and Willis

 

[Coronis]

He was a master of the manliest result: the draw.

Didn’t those Windies teams have manly men too?

 

[BazBall21]

Border was good v WI but not elite. He faltered against them on the fast pitches.

Root isn't great on bouncy wickets so it doesn't hold much bearing in this comparison.

The criticism of Border is his RPI/not out inflation and his batting style not being best suited to 5/6 where he batted a lot. Proving himself at 3-4 reduces that caveat but the caveats are directly correlative.

 

[Johan]

Root isn't great on bouncy wickets so it doesn't hold much bearing in this comparison.

Root when asked to convert a 50 on a fast wicket to a 100

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Didn’t those Windies teams have manly men too?

Very happy to drop the "manly" terminology entirely tbh, the "manly draw" comment was supposed to convey my distain for it.

The 80s WIndies side had a lot of draws, yes, but their batsmen didn't succeed so disproportionately well in the draws compared with on result pitches. Viv, Lloyd, Greenidge, Haynes all fare better than Border on that measure.*


*Waugh benefits maybe more than anyone from that metric, so expect me to abandon it as a measure entirely if discussing a different Australian captain

 

[BazBall21]

Root when asked to convert a 50 on a fast wicket to a 100
View attachment 42577

That dreaded square nudge v a rising delivery.

 

[Johan]

That dreaded square nudge v a rising delivery.

always that, always get starts and then that, it's very frustrating, hope he got it by now and works on his game in Australia next year.

 

[Johan]

Huh, Border's RPI is surprisingly low, even top order it's 42-43

 

[BazBall21]

It is a legitimate caveat for an ATG. Him and Waugh.

 

[Johan]

It is a legitimate caveat for an ATG. Him and Waugh.

Waugh has a respectable RPI when batting top 5 tbh

Waugh in top 5 — 46.76 RPI
Border in top 5 – 43.34 RPI
Root in top 5 – 47.57 RPI

 

[BazBall21]

Waugh has a respectable RPI when batting top 5 tbh

Waugh in top 5 — 46.76 RPI
Border in top 5 – 43.34 RPI
Root in top 5 – 47.57 RPI

Waugh had a balanced tempo. Border was more defensive. And because Border didn't play for a strong Australian side for a huge chunk of his career he was more liable to end up with the lower order before he could maximise.

 

[BazBall21]

Waugh did also bat exclusively at 5-6 unlike Border. I rate Waugh because he frequently did well in tough conditions, but comparing him to guys who always batted higher (especially top 3) over long sample sizes can be difficult.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Border was good v WI but not elite. He faltered against them on the fast pitches.

Root isn't great on bouncy wickets so it doesn't hold much bearing in this comparison.

The criticism of Border is his RPI/not out inflation and his batting style not being best suited to 5/6 where he batted a lot. Proving himself at 3-4 reduces that caveat but the caveats are directly correlative.

Border did have an amazing series vs Holding and Garner on some fast pitches in 1981/82. His record more complete than Root’s