Javed Miandad vs Younis Khan

[BazBall21]

That's fine. As I said, I just find Younis' output there rounded enough to not have ahead

Disagree because it wasn't really output in quintessential testing conditions, and that is what defines superiority in those countries imo. It's not as though Miandad had a particular weakness of leaving runs out there too and that includes outside the subcontinent where he made some big hundreds on flat tracks too.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I don't think always so. I rate Dravid alongside Ponting, Root, Waugh, Sangakkara and Kallis. Younis is a bit behind. Re closeness, if I don't loose much value on replacing one with the another in the long run, I will vote them to be close. Hence, I would probably vote Gavaskar and Dravid to be close, despite ranking Gavaskar in the Best after Don tier

Fair. I still think ranking Miandad a whole tier below Dravid doesn’t seem right but it’s all subjective.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Disagree because it wasn't really output in quintessential testing conditions, and that is what defines superiority in those countries imo. It's not as though Miandad had a weakness at leaving runs out there too and that includes outside the subcontinent where he made some big hundreds on flat tracks too.

Sydney is a quintessentially important Australian ground which has historically been a Turner. You could say he didn't scored those runs in some fast wickets like Perth or Brisbane, but Miandad's output in Australia is not Great either. If you don't want to completely ignore that Sydney innings, I think Younis takes it in Australia.

 

[Johan]

close in term of volume/output =/= close relatively, when discussing things like that, one must remember that even in a comparison where most would agree that it's not close, say Tendulkar vs Dravid, the run output gap accross their careers is less than 2 runs, so in volume and practicality the gaps between ATGs are always very small.

now relative standing is a different factor.

 

[BazBall21]

Sydney is a quintessentially important Australian ground which has historically been a Turner. You could say he didn't scored those runs in some fast wickets like Perth or Brisbane, but Miandad's output in Australia is not Great either. If you don't want to completely ignore that Sydney innings, I think Younis takes it in Australia.

Lyon struggles in Sydney because he thrives on bounce and overspin, hence his record in Asia isn't great. Sydney is quite slow and low. Miandad wasn't great in Australia either and was no superhero outside the SC, but I think he had a slightly higher ceiling v pace which is reflected in him being the one that cracked ODI in a tough era for ODI batting.

 

[capt_Luffy]

close in term of volume/output =/= close relatively, when discussing things like that, one must remember that even in a comparison where most would agree that it's not close, say Tendulkar vs Dravid, the run output gap accross their careers is less than 2 runs, so in volume and practicality the gaps between ATGs are always very small.

now relative standing is a different factor.

I think that's what makes Don such a cheat code..... It sounds like a fever dream.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lyon struggles at Sydney because he thrives on bounce and overspin, hence his record in Asia isn't great. Sydney is quite low and slow. Miandad wasn't great in Australia either and was no superhero outside the SC but I think he had a slightly higher ceiling v pace which is reflected in him being the one that cracked ODI in a tough era for ODI batting.

Won't bring ODIs here really. And as I said, I agree Miandad was a better player of pace, but if the discussion is on Australian record, I don't think ignoring Sydney is fair really.

 

[BazBall21]

Won't bring ODIs here really. And as I said, I agree Miandad was a better player of pace, but if the discussion is on Australian record, I don't think ignoring Sydney is fair really.

No one ignored Sydney, I'm just explaining why that innings isn't enough for me to declare Younis the superior player in Australian conditions.

ODI - Younis' plan in simple terms was to survive threatening pace and target the spinner&weaker pace bowling. His ODI record reflects limitations v seamers that would have restricted him in a tougher batting era/higher percentage of tests in seaming and/or bouncy conditions v skilled operators because then you need more release options v pace and need to survive more jaffa's; both of which were hostile to his strategy. Miandad has a good ODI record in a tough era for ODI batting which reflects his better range of options v pace. Hence my gut feel is Miandad was the slightly more skilled player in Australian conditions, if not great himself.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No one ignored Sydney, I'm just explaining why that innings isn't enough for me to declare Younis the superior player in Australian conditions.

ODI - Younis' plan in simple terms was to survive threatening pace and target the spinner&weaker pace bowling. His ODI record reflects limitations v seamers that would have restricted him in a tougher batting era/higher percentage of tests in seaming and/or bouncy conditions v skilled operators as then you need more release options and need to survive more jaffa's, both of which were hostile to his strategy. Miandad has a good ODI record in a tough era for ODI batting which reflects his better range of options v pace. Hence my gut feel is Miandad was the slightly more skilled player in Australian conditions, if not great himself.

As I said, I agree Miandad was more suited for typical Australian pitches. But I think factually Younis has the better record, though being affected by a number of factors in his favour (i.e., one favourable pitch). Miandad played there 16 times and played some mid attacks in the 90s as well, but never really shone except one Great ton. I will go with the record over perception, as the discussion is literally who did better there not who could have done so given different circumstances (not saying ignore circumstances, but none is extreme enough here imo).

 

[BazBall21]

As I said, I agree Miandad was more suited for typical Australian pitches. But I think factually Younis has the better record, though being affected by a number of factors in his favour (i.e., one favourable pitch). Miandad played there 16 times and played some mid attacks in the 90s as well, but never really shone except one Great ton. I will go with the record over perception, as the discussion is literally who did better there not who could have done so given different circumstances (not saying ignore circumstances, but none is extreme enough here imo).

I don't agree that one daddy ton on a flat pitch v two seamers is sufficient for this statement. I agree though that Miandad wasn't great outside Asia. Will leave it there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't agree that one daddy ton on a flat pitch v two seamers is sufficient for this statement. I agree though that Miandad wasn't great outside Asia. Will leave it there.

Agree to disagree. I think he has done more in Australia than Miandad given circumstances. That's what counts at the end of the day.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Younis did have a decent series against peak McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, and Macgill in 2004 but couldn’t make a big score

A daddy hundred in only 6 games is a good effort though

 

[BazBall21]

Agree to disagree. I think he has done more in Australia than Miandad given circumstances. That's what counts at the end of the day.

Don't think he has done more to prove he is better in Australia.