Jacques Kallis vs Ricky Ponting

[ma1978]

When Ponting would hit an on drive for his first boundary you knew you were done for

the most dominant player for the most dominant team.

 

[Johan]

Ponting in Tendulkar and Lara’s league for best after Bradman. Probably not as good as the first two but in the conversation. Kallis is not. You had to watch the cricket to understand.

I've watched all four bat, It's kinda crazy to suggest Ponting's career is in league with Lara or Tendulkar

 

[ma1978]

I've watched all four bat, It's kinda crazy to suggest Ponting's career is in league with Lara or Tendulkar

Easy to say that in retrospect but when Ponting was at his peak he looked like he was the best of the lot. It so happened that Tendulkar and Lara had second late career peaks and that never happened with Ponting.

 

[Thala_0710]

I've watched all four bat, It's kinda crazy to suggest Ponting's career is in league with Lara or Tendulkar

I don't think his career is in the same league as those two, similar league to Kallis, Dravid and Sanga I'd say. It's just that when Ponting was on it his batsmanship level was the best of these 4 and of a similar league to the other two. But he simply didn't have the consistency in all conditions and over his entire career for him to merit a position alongside Sachin and Lara overall

 

[Johan]

Easy to say that in retrospect but when Ponting was at his peak he looked like he was the best of the lot. It so happened that Tendulkar and Lara had second late career peaks and that never happened with Ponting.

we

I don't think his career is in the same league as those two, similar league to Kallis, Dravid and Sanga I'd say. It's just that when Ponting was on it his batsmanship level was the best of these 4 and of a similar league to the other two. But he simply didn't have the consistency in all conditions and over his entire career for him to merit a position alongside Sachin and Lara overall

well I said career for a reason.

Ponting as a young Batsmen was wonderful but until 2002 he was kind of an on and off player, he played some great knocks and then immediately failed afterwards, he was very good but kind of not great? not even in the conversation with SRT or Brian Lara ar the very least.

he had a 2002-2006 where he was genuinely in the conversation for the GOAT, but the peak happened to come after almost all the ATG pacers had retired, and the highway era was in full force already, multiple batsmen averaging 60+ and Ponting was the only one averaging 70+, but it wasn't a peak that I can honestly say that I would rate him over Lara or Tendulkar for, especially since both peaked in much tougher eras like early 90s for Lara or late 90s for Tendulkar

and after that, he was again, just a good Batsmen, not even very good anymore. It wasn't even a Viv type low period where he had some brilliant years after peak, it was just...I don't know, lame.

so when you look at his career, it was really just very good ---> ATG ---> good, and the very good part happened to be a 6 year long stretch, the ATG part happens to be 5 years long and the good part happens to be 6 years long as well, all three parts having approximately the same amount of matches so really...when you compare with SRT or Lara, while Ponting was brilliant for a while (even disregarding the context of that timeframe), he didn't quite sustain the brilliance enough for him to be in the conversation with Lara or Tendulkar who sustained their brilliance for more than a decade.

 

[ma1978]

we

well I said career for a reason.

Ponting as a young Batsmen was wonderful but until 2002 he was kind of an on and off player, he played some great knocks and then immediately failed afterwards, he was very good but kind of not great? not even in the conversation with SRT or Brian Lara ar the very least.

he had a 2002-2006 where he was genuinely in the conversation for the GOAT, but the peak happened to come after almost all the ATG pacers had retired, and the highway era was in full force already, multiple batsmen averaging 60+ and Ponting was the only one averaging 70+, but it wasn't a peak that I can honestly say that I would rate him over Lara or Tendulkar for, especially since both peaked in much tougher eras like early 90s for Lara or late 90s for Tendulkar

and after that, he was again, just a good Batsmen, not even very good anymore. It wasn't even a Viv type low period where he had some brilliant years after peak, it was just...I don't know, lame.

so when you look at his career, it was really just very good ---> ATG ---> good, and the very good part happened to be a 6 year long stretch, the ATG part happens to be 5 years long and the good part happens to be 6 years long as well, all three parts having approximately the same amount of matches so really...when you compare with SRT or Lara, while Ponting was brilliant for a while (even disregarding the context of that timeframe), he didn't quite sustain the brilliance enough for him to be in the conversation with Lara or Tendulkar who sustained their brilliance for more than a decade.

All fair points

 

[kyear2]

Easy to say that in retrospect but when Ponting was at his peak he looked like he was the best of the lot. It so happened that Tendulkar and Lara had second late career peaks and that never happened with Ponting.

Good point.

Lara and Tendulkar also did better against higher level competition early on, and that separates them as well. But Ponting at his best was right up there with them.

 

[kyear2]

we

well I said career for a reason.

Ponting as a young Batsmen was wonderful but until 2002 he was kind of an on and off player, he played some great knocks and then immediately failed afterwards, he was very good but kind of not great? not even in the conversation with SRT or Brian Lara ar the very least.

he had a 2002-2006 where he was genuinely in the conversation for the GOAT, but the peak happened to come after almost all the ATG pacers had retired, and the highway era was in full force already, multiple batsmen averaging 60+ and Ponting was the only one averaging 70+, but it wasn't a peak that I can honestly say that I would rate him over Lara or Tendulkar for, especially since both peaked in much tougher eras like early 90s for Lara or late 90s for Tendulkar

and after that, he was again, just a good Batsmen, not even very good anymore. It wasn't even a Viv type low period where he had some brilliant years after peak, it was just...I don't know, lame.

so when you look at his career, it was really just very good ---> ATG ---> good, and the very good part happened to be a 6 year long stretch, the ATG part happens to be 5 years long and the good part happens to be 6 years long as well, all three parts having approximately the same amount of matches so really...when you compare with SRT or Lara, while Ponting was brilliant for a while (even disregarding the context of that timeframe), he didn't quite sustain the brilliance enough for him to be in the conversation with Lara or Tendulkar who sustained their brilliance for more than a decade.

That's a fair assessment.
.he was immense in that period though, and for me clearly above Kallis and Dravid.

 

[ma1978]

That's a fair assessment.
.he was immense in that period though, and for me clearly above Kallis and Dravid.

Both Dravid and Kallis also had imperious peaks. There is nothing to statistically differentiate them. To me it’s simply the most dominant player in the most dominant team that separates them.

 

[ankitj]

Bowling strike rate >>> Batting strike rate in tests

And that's because they are very different things. Batting SR is equivalent to Bowling economy. Bowling SR is equivalent to batting balls per dismissal.

 

[kyear2]

Yup.

 

[Bolo.]

Both Dravid and Kallis also had imperious peaks. There is nothing to statistically differentiate them. To me it’s simply the most dominant player in the most dominant team that separates them.

If Ponting is better due to playing in a stronger team, where does this leave players like Sachin and Lara?

FTR though, I think that Pontings dominace was a huge plus in the team he played for. I think that striking at 60ish would probably have been worse than Dravid striking at 43? for India. But Ponting didn't play for India.

Not sure why you are calling Ponting the most dominant bat for AUS though. He played with Gilchrist (and more arguably Hayden). And if you are simply using dominant as a proxy for good, Kallis/Dravid would clearly have been the best bat AUS had in his place.

 

[kyear2]

If Ponting is better due to playing in a stronger team, where does this leave players like Sachin and Lara?

FTR though, I think that Pontings dominace was a huge plus in the team he played for. I think that striking at 60ish would probably have been worse than Dravid striking at 43? for India. But Ponting didn't play for India.

Not sure why you are calling Ponting the most dominant bat for AUS though. He played with Gilchrist (and more arguably Hayden). And if you are simply using dominant as a proxy for good, Kallis/Dravid would clearly have been the best bat AUS had in his place.

Why exactly?

Gilchrist batted at 7, Ponting set the tone at 3. Hayden was well known not to be at his best vs the best of bowlers.

 

[BazBall21]

Ponting

 

[Bolo.]

Why exactly?

Gilchrist batted at 7, Ponting set the tone at 3. Hayden was well known not to be at his best vs the best of bowlers.

Hayden struck at the same rate as Ponting. Ponting came in later, and typically with a lot of runs on the board, often when Hayden had already started moving. Why do you think Hayden wasn't setting the tone?

And if you aren't talking about setting a tone, Gilchrist struck much faster than either.

As I said, I have a lot of respect for Pontings SR in the context of the team he played for. Was fantastic. But I don't know why you divorce him from his teammates. He hardly seems unique in the way you are trying to present.

And in terms of what you have bolded, Dravid gave all the usual advantages like wearing down the opposition bowlers etc. But for his team specifically, he gave the advatage of wearing down the pitch. Indian bowlers sucked balls in those days on a fresh pitch. But get Kumble, for example, onto almost any day 5 pitch in the world, and it is going to get ugly.

I look forward to your usual response about how I'm incapable of appreciating the advantages that faster striking provides.

 

[Bolo.]

I look forward to your usual response about how I'm incapable of appreciating the advantages that faster striking provides.

Sorry @kyear2, this is very confrontational.

I was obliterated drunk. I barely remember writing this.

I'm at a complete loss in terms of explaining why the post is more legible than most of the stuff I write sober.

 

[BazBall21]

Ponting's ability and penchant to frequently play efficient horizontal shots gives him a better chance when relentless high release pacers are operating from both ends. That and giving his bowlers more time are two production-based benefits of Ponting's superior destructiveness, rather than being strictly a subjective preference.

But there is still definitely a case for Kallis over Ponting. Better player of spin and had a vastly milder decline.

 

[Coronis]

Sorry @kyear2, this is very confrontational.

I was obliterated drunk. I barely remember writing this.

I'm at a complete loss in terms of explaining why the post is more legible than most of the stuff I write sober.

You should drunkpoat more often

 

[Johan]

That's a fair assessment.
.he was immense in that period though, and for me clearly above Kallis and Dravid.

I'll say

as Young batsmen – Ponting ~ Dravid > Kallis

Primes – Ponting > Kallis > Dravid

Declines – Kallis > Dravid > Ponting

all three gun, I have Ponting higher and near the top of the tier 2 ATG batsmen.

 

[kyear2]

I'll say

as Young batsmen – Ponting ~ Dravid > Kallis

Primes – Ponting > Kallis > Dravid

Declines – Kallis > Dravid > Ponting

all three gun, I have Ponting higher and near the top of the tier 2 ATG batsmen.

Fair