Jacques Kallis vs Ricky Ponting

[subshakerz]

You have raised the impact of minnows on average repeatedly. It creates a delta of one run in average between the two.

There is a delta of 3 runs between their career averages.

3 is more than 1. So are you intentionally raising meaningless points about minnows, or should we consider Kallis to have a very meaningfully higher career average?

Yes so without minnow it closes the gap, and factoring in end career stuff closes it further.

The point always was not to take Kallis raw average as indicating of any superiority over Ponting since with context it becomes clear it's inflated, similar to Sanga.

Whatever extenuating circumstances apply to Pontings end dip apply more so to Kallis' early performances. Look at this and tell me.if you think AUS were hurting more for bats than RSA?

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No it doesn't because what Kallis faced wasn't unique by the standards of great bats.

 

[Bolo.]

Yes so without minnow it closes the gap, and factoring in end career stuff closes it further.

The point always was not to take Kallis raw average as indicating of any superiority over Ponting since with context it becomes clear it's inflated, similar to Sanga.


No it doesn't because what Kallis faced wasn't unique by the standards of great bats.

You seem a bit more obsessed with their career averages than most. Going on about a 1 point swing is crazy talk. 3 points is something, but not much. The relative respect for Kallis in terms of averages comes primarily from there being a very big gap in away averages, and the very big gap in difficultly of conditions. Nobody on CW takes career averages at face value.

Nobody has claimed Kallis faced unique difficulties. Just that he has a stronger case for extenuating circumstances than Ponting. Kallis, the fact that he was crap with the bat for his first few years notwithstanding, was playing alongside a bunch of bats averaging in the teens and 20s. And was taking cheap wickets. Pontings performances actually hurt his for his last couple of years. If the argument is helping out his team, I don't see why you think this is in Ponting's favour.

 

[subshakerz]

You seem a bit more obsessed with their career averages than most. Going on about a 1 point swing is crazy talk. 3 points is something, but not much. The relative respect for Kallis in terms of averages comes primarily from there being a very big gap in away averages, and the very big gap in difficultly of conditions. Nobody on CW takes career averages at face value.

I don't care that much about averages. I rate Viv higher here than most and he barely averages over 50.

But this partis just working and why I made this argument.

Nobody has claimed Kallis faced unique difficulties. Just that he has a stronger case for extenuating circumstances than Ponting. Kallis, the fact that he was crap with the bat for his first few years notwithstanding, was playing alongside a bunch of bats averaging in the teens and 20s. And was taking cheap wickets. Pontings performances actually hurt his for his last couple of years. If the argument is helping out his team, I don't see why you think this is in Ponting's favour.

That's not the argument. The argument is that we can be a bit charitable in assessing Pontings overall average as a bat knowing it took a hit by playing in circumstances that he normally would have retired earlier in.

I do the same in looking at Imran's late career bowling. I also take this into account for Tendulkar and Akram debuting as teens.

 

[Coronis]

I don't care that much about averages. I rate Viv higher here than most and he barely averages over 50.

But this partis just working and why I made this argument.


That's not the argument. The argument is that we can be a bit charitable in assessing Pontings overall average as a bat knowing it took a hit by playing in circumstances that he normally would have retired earlier in.

Nobody forced him. The team wasn’t in dire straits. He made his own choice to keep playing. You’re just using this bs as a crutch to justify ranking him ahead. (Which btw, is completely unnecessary, I don’t think anyone is saying there is a huge difference between them, there are plenty of legitimate arguments you can actually make, and I don’t think anyone here has a major issue with someone rating Kallis over Ponting or vice versa)

 

[subshakerz]

Nobody forced him. The team wasn’t in dire straits. He made his own choice to keep playing. You’re just using this bs as a crutch to justify ranking him ahead. (Which btw, is completely unnecessary, I don’t think anyone is saying there is a huge difference between them, there are plenty of legitimate arguments you can actually make, and I don’t think anyone here has a major issue with someone rating Kallis over Ponting or vice versa)

I mentioned that argument to just account for average difference. And sure nobody forced him but I am not dogmatic to suggest that a delayed retirement impacted his record.

Anyways we don't need to debate this further, my standard arguments for Ponting over Kallis have always been better rep and more dominant playing style, which aren't as debatable.

Kallis' playing style is below ATG standard.

 

[Bolo.]

That's not the argument. The argument is that we can be a bit charitable in assessing Pontings overall average as a bat knowing it took a hit by playing in circumstances that he normally would have retired earlier in.

Nobody has claimed Kallis faced unique difficulties. Just that he has a stronger case for extenuating circumstances than Ponting. Kallis, the fact that he was crap with the bat for his first few years notwithstanding, was playing alongside a bunch of bats averaging in the teens and 20s. And was taking cheap wickets. Pontings performances actually hurt his for his last couple of years. If the argument is helping out his team, I don't see why you think this is in Ponting's favour.

 

[subshakerz]

Nobody has claimed Kallis faced unique difficulties. Just that he has a stronger case for extenuating circumstances than Ponting. Kallis, the fact that he was crap with the bat for his first few years notwithstanding, was playing alongside a bunch of bats averaging in the teens and 20s. And was taking cheap wickets. Pontings performances actually hurt his for his last couple of years. If the argument is helping out his team, I don't see why you think this is in Ponting's favour.

I think you would agree with the argument I am making for Ponting, just that we disagree on threshold. For example if it was an utterly crap team and he played until his 40s still worth being in the top 6 despite medium form, you would be more liable to give him a pass for his end years.

 

[Bolo.]

I think you would agree with the argument I am making for Ponting, just that we disagree on threshold. For example if it was an utterly crap team and he played until his 40s still worth being in the top 6 despite medium form, you would be more liable to give him a pass for his end years.

I don't mind where the threshold is drawn, as long as it is above the line of helping your team. I do find myself rating bats lower who are above the line, but I also kinda think it's a bit dumb to do so.

Anyway, regardless of where the line gets drawn, I think early Kallis is on the greener side of it than late Ponting. Which is not to say that early Kallis was a better bat than late Ponting. I'm just responding to the parameters you are drawing.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't mind where the threshold is drawn, as long as it is above the line of helping your team. I do find myself rating bats lower who are above the line, but I also kinda think it's a bit dumb to do so.

Anyway, regardless of where the line gets drawn, I think early Kallis is on the greener side of it than late Ponting. Which is not to say that early Kallis was a better bat than late Ponting. I'm just responding to the parameters you are drawing.

I disagree but we have both said our pieces. Thanks for the exchange.