Jacques Kallis vs Rahul Dravid vs Kumar Sangakkara

[anil1405]

Dravid had only one skill. Kallis and Sanga possessed two. And there is a small matter of ODI performances too.

So apt of you to bring up Kallis' bowling ability and Sanga's keeping skills to signify how ahead they are when the thread is all about batting alone.

 

[Migara]

Are you forgetting that Dravid was wicket keeper of India in 2003 WC ?

HE was an off spinner too. But very poor one at both those skills. Where as Kallis and Sanga were world class in their second skill.

 

[Migara]

So apt of you to bring up Kallis' bowling ability and Sanga's keeping skills to signify how ahead they are when the thread is all about batting alone.

"| Sangakkara as a keeper-batsman is a tier or two below Kallis/Dravid. "

I never brought it up in the first place. Why don't you ask yourself the question?

 

[anil1405]

"| Sangakkara as a keeper-batsman is a tier or two below Kallis/Dravid. "

I never brought it up in the first place. Why don't you ask yourself the question?

Did you even read the post before that? I didn't bring it up either. Was replying to LL's take on picking Sanga as a batsman keeper in drafts.

If someone is picking Sanga as a batsman keeper in an ATG side I'd rate Sanga's batting two tiers below Sanga the outfielder.

 

[Gob]

Who play pace better?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

But they shouldn't be in the same poll to start off with, both played in a different era. But I don't think any Indian batsmen was better than Gavaskar, imagine facing those great bowling lineups of Australia and WI without a bloody helmet. Aus and WI players still had the advantage of not facing their own set of bowlers, Gavaskar didn't.

I rate Gavaskar as the greatest batsman ever ( bar Bradman ), and Dravid wont even feature in my top 5 asian bats ( Sunny, Sachin, Sanga, Miandad and Kohli )

But if there is a test batsman who can win a social media poll against Sachin.. It has to be Dravid.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

If you want Sangakarra, then he’s gonna have to come with HAPW

 

[Migara]

If you want Sangakarra, then he’s gonna have to come with HAPW

HAPW will walk in to any test side as a specialist keeper.

Sanga as non wk bat has Smith esque numbers, far better than Kallis or David. Dravid probably is the better test bat. Sanga overall in batsmanship, and Kallis playerwise.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Dravid had only one skill. Kallis and Sanga possessed two. And there is a small matter of ODI performances too.

But the OP is only focussing on test batting skills I assume.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

If we’re not going to compare players because they played in different eras we’ll have to shut down 75% of the threads in CC.

That's OK, these comparisons are anyways for the romance of it.

 

[Dendarii]

But the OP is only focussing on test batting skills I assume.

I would imagine so, but it's not particularly strange for the players' secondary skills to enter into it and become an offshoot of the main discussion as everyone gives their different take on the three.

 

[srbhkshk]

+ it's an intrinsic component of the discussion anyway, when deciding how good of a batsman Kallis or Sanga were it will always be in the mind as to how these guys would bat if they didn't have to handle their secondary duties.

 

[Uppercut]

Just a reminder that Sangakkara averages 66.7 over 86 tests while not being the designated keeper and 40.48 over 48 tests while being the keeper.

That is not to say that he'd average 67 over his entire career if he did not keep because the tests he did not keep co-related more to his peak, but it's still 86 ****ing tests which is a huge sample size and it's fair to say his average over 134 tests of 57.4, which is still higher than the other 2 is hindered by a fair bit by having to keep for 36% of his tests.

It's also worth noting that he had to bat at No.3 in the 'Sanga' role for the majority of the tests that he was keeping as well which is very different from batting as a No.6/7 in a more aggressive role which mist have been incredibly strenuous.

Overall, I rate Sangakkara incredibly highly. In the 1990-2010 period, I'd say only Sachin and Lara were better test batsmen and in more recent times, Smith will probably finish ahead.

This kind of gap between peak period and non-peak period is pretty standard though, no? I feel like it would need to really stand out to conclude that the wicket keeping was holding back his batting by a lot.

IIRC a lot of players had ridiculously hot streaks around the time of Sanga's peak. Ponting obviously has his god-tier years, but guys like Younis, Yousuf and Chanderpaul also had long streaks of obscene run-scoring. I'm not sure if there was a time when there was daylight between him and his contemporaries, which was clearly the case for Tendulkar and Lara in the 90s.

I mean I still feel like he's way underrated, but this is pushing it too far imo.

 

[Coronis]

This kind of gap between peak period and non-peak period is pretty standard though, no? I feel like it would need to really stand out to conclude that the wicket keeping was holding back his batting by a lot.

IIRC a lot of players had ridiculously hot streaks around the time of Sanga's peak. Ponting obviously has his god-tier years, but guys like Younis, Yousuf and Chanderpaul also had long streaks of obscene run-scoring. I'm not sure if there was a time when there was daylight between him and his contemporaries, which was clearly the case for Tendulkar and Lara in the 90s.

I mean I still feel like he's way underrated, but this is pushing it too far imo.

I wouldn’t call a 27 point difference standard, personally.

 

[Gob]

Kallis

 

[Jack1]

Kallis

Sangakkara

 

[Teja.]

This kind of gap between peak period and non-peak period is pretty standard though, no? I feel like it would need to really stand out to conclude that the wicket keeping was holding back his batting by a lot.

IIRC a lot of players had ridiculously hot streaks around the time of Sanga's peak. Ponting obviously has his god-tier years, but guys like Younis, Yousuf and Chanderpaul also had long streaks of obscene run-scoring. I'm not sure if there was a time when there was daylight between him and his contemporaries, which was clearly the case for Tendulkar and Lara in the 90s.

I mean I still feel like he's way underrated, but this is pushing it too far imo.

27 runs on average is an improvement of 67.5% from 40. I would not describe the gap as standard tbh. I would be extremely surprised if a single cricketer (with a decent sample size of tests both as specialist batsman and designated keeper) had anywhere close to an improvement as a batsman when they were not the designated keeper. Someone who is often cited in this regard, Alec Stewart had a batting average of 34.9 as keeper and 46.7 as designated batsman. That difference is huge but not quite comparable to Sanga even if we account for the absolute run difference being lower due to the start off point being lower.

He basically went from what would be a barely test standard batsman for his batting friendly era to someone who averaged about 10 runs more than what you'd expect from an all-time great batsman for his time. To illustrate the point a different way, he had 10 double hundreds in 64% of his career while not keeping and 1 double hundred in the 36% of his career keeping. He became someone who consistently made 150+ scores as pure batsman which traditionally are extremely rare as the designated keeper, and would be much harder in Sanga's case because he was keeping along with batting No.3 a majority of the time.

You have a point about other batsmen also having red hot streaks during Sanga's career but IMO he was the best of the batsmen whose effective careers were (almost) exclusively in the 2000-2015 period. He was the one to do it most consistently and brutally in a variety of conditions over 15 years. This was even more true when he did not have to keep anymore and averaged over 65 for the year 9 year period from 2006-2014. He has the record for the most amount of double hundreds apart from Bradman and I think 8/11 double hundreds forced a result and 1 against Pakistan saved a match from what looked like a clear draw. He was excellent in spinning, bouncy and swinging conditions.

The only one to keep up with him over the entire 15 year period was Kallis but he was less likely to relentlessly shut down the game with a big century when he got going IMO, even in favourable batting conditions. I'd say Dravid and Ponting have significant cases against them over Sanga in terms of not being as good for quite as long and also failing a few major challenges each, like Ponting in India again and again or Dravid against quality seam bowling in places like SA/Australia. I'd say Kallis/Dravid/Ponting are quite close to Sanga overall though. Waugh is not far behind either.

Who, apart from Tendulkar and Lara, do you think was better than Sangakkara in the 1990-2015 period?

 

[subshakerz]

27 runs on average is an improvement of 67.5% from 40. I would not describe the gap as standard tbh. I would be extremely surprised if a single cricketer (with a decent sample size of tests both as specialist batsman and designated keeper) had anywhere close to an improvement as a batsman when they were not the designated keeper. Someone who is often cited in this regard, Alec Stewart had a batting average of 34.9 as keeper and 46.7 as designated batsman. That difference is huge but not quite comparable to Sanga even if we account for the absolute run difference being lower due to the start off point being lower.

He basically went from what would be a barely test standard batsman for his batting friendly era to someone who averaged about 10 runs more than what you'd expect from an all-time great batsman for his time. To illustrate the point a different way, he had 10 double hundreds in 64% of his career while not keeping and 1 double hundred in the 36% of his career keeping. He became someone who consistently made 150+ scores as pure batsman which traditionally are extremely rare as the designated keeper, and would be much harder in Sanga's case because he was keeping along with batting No.3 a majority of the time.

You have a point about other batsmen also having red hot streaks during Sanga's career but IMO he was the best of the batsmen whose effective careers were (almost) exclusively in the 2000-2015 period. He was the one to do it most consistently and brutally in a variety of conditions over 15 years. This was even more true when he did not have to keep anymore and averaged over 65 for the year 9 year period from 2006-2014. He has the record for the most amount of double hundreds apart from Bradman and I think 8/11 double hundreds forced a result and 1 against Pakistan saved a match from what looked like a clear draw. He was excellent in spinning, bouncy and swinging conditions.

The only one to keep up with him over the entire 15 year period was Kallis but he was less likely to relentlessly shut down the game with a big century when he got going IMO, even in favourable batting conditions. I'd say Dravid and Ponting have significant cases against them over Sanga in terms of not being as good for quite as long and also failing a few major challenges each, like Ponting in India again and again or Dravid against quality seam bowling in places like SA/Australia. I'd say Kallis/Dravid/Ponting are quite close to Sanga overall though. Waugh is not far behind either.

Who, apart from Tendulkar and Lara, do you think was better than Sangakkara in the 1990-2015 period?

Ricky Ponting I think ends up ahead of Sanga.

 

[Flem274*]

Sangakkara's last phase of his career was during the 2011 onwards bowling renaissance.

If he was going to be "found out" as a flat track bully hack, 30+ year old Sangakkara would have.

His double century on a spicy deck one week after being eaten alive by Trent Boult was the best innings I have seen on our shores. He owns another contender for that innings, an unbeaten ton in 2006 against Shane Bond.

 

[Flem274*]

Ricky Ponting I think ends up ahead of Sanga.

I make Bradman open in my Aus ATG XI so I can have the God of my childhood at #3, but Sangakkara has a strong case to be higher than Ponting. Ponting's golden run from 2000 - 2007 or so was the nadir of world pace bowling stocks, and two of the very best were on his own team.

I instinctively think Ponting > Sangakkara > Dravid > Tendulkar > Kallis > Lara, but that's based on childhood nostalgia and the games I saw as a teenager. Realistically I go Tendulkar > Sangakkara > Ponting > Lara > Kallis > Dravid.