Jacques Kallis - Most Underrated Allrounder

[Matt79]

Tool is a bit harsh, hes just trying to do his job, and he does it with incredible reliability.. He hasn't had any run ins with match officials, doesn't get angry, display dissent..

I find these to be admirable qualities.. In this fake era of personalities, superstars, controversy and such, I find Kallis's simple down to earth-ness very refreshing

Good points. I don't think he IS a tool, but sometimes comes across as a slight tool (if such a thing exists). I'm hard-pressed to give you a specific reason, it might simply be down to things as basic as whether he looks like he enjoys his cricket etc. How he looks isn't really his fault, but I think it doesn't help people warm to him. Unfair, and god knows I'm no model...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

On same pitches Taylor, Colly, Edwards, Munaf and even Santh averaged under 35. Bravo's avg. was similar to that of Pathan and strike rate was worse. Not to forget Pathan was pathetically poor.

Collymore > Bravo.

All the others are quicker than Bravo and on the slow West Indian pitches, that is a real factor. But then I wouldn't expect anything other than superficial analysis from you.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Last 16 Tests (no Zimbabwe):

DJJ Bravo 36 wickets at 35.97
2x5w
BB - 6-55

JH Kallis 22 wickets @ 48.86
0x5w
BB - 3-52

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Last 15 ODIs (no Zimbabwe):

DJJ Bravo 14 wickets @ 39.85
Econ: 6.13

JH Kallis 6 wickets @ 55.66
Econ: 6.22

 

[TT Boy]

Over differentiation?

 

[Fratboy]

Sobers bowled 38 overs a test. Kallis bowls 22. Even Imran managed 36 overs a test despite half his career being played out after the shin injury.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Over differentiation?

Bravo has bowled twice as many over the last 15 ODIs, which really goes to show that Kallis really isn't much of a bowler anymore.

 

[Jono]

Would also be interesting to see the proportion of overs Kallis bowls in total of SA overs compared to that of Bravo.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Would also be interesting to see the proportion of overs Kallis bowls in total of SA overs compared to that of Bravo.

Well I think it's fairly safe to say that (in Tests) the West Indies have bowled a lot more overs than South Africa has in recent times.

 

[Jono]

Well I think it's fairly safe to say that (in Tests) the West Indies have bowled a lot more overs than South Africa has in recent times.

That's my point.

So using a percentage of Kallis overs out of SA overs bowled compared to a percentage of Bravo overs out of WI overs bowled would adjust for the fact that WI bowl more overs anyway (allowing Bravo to bowl more).

It'd give a more accurate idea of who bowls more proportionally, and I'd imagine that the result would be Bravo hands down.

 

[Goughy]

Well I think it's fairly safe to say that (in Tests) the West Indies have bowled a lot more overs than South Africa has in recent times.

I dont doubt that Bravo may currently be a better bowler than Kallis, however as I said earlier guys like Bravo do not deserve to be mentioned in a sentance with a 'blue chip' cricketer like Kallis

Kallis's bowling has declined but he can still do a job, however his batting and career stands scrutiny.

Just to point out, between 1999-2002 (4 years) he averages over 60 with the bat and under 28 with the ball.

That is special given good specialist bowlers like Hoggard, Gough etc are praised for similar averages.

Also just to point out, Kallis seldom got to bowl at the tail or get the new ball. The bulk of his work was done against the middle order with an older ball.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I dont doubt that Bravo may currently be a better bowler than Kallis, however as I said earlier guys like Bravo do not deserve to be mentioned in a sentance with a 'blue chip' cricketer like Kallis

Kallis's bowling has declined but he can still do a job, however his batting and career stands scrutiny.

Just to point out, between 1999-2002 (4 years) he averages over 60 with the bat and under 28 with the ball.

That is special given good specialist bowlers like Hoggard, Gough etc are praised for similar averages.

Also just to point out, Kallis seldom got to bowl at the tail or get the new ball. The bulk of his work was done against the middle order with an older ball.

This is why I noted earlier in this thread that presented Kallis is not an allrounder, but a batsman who can bowl very occasionally. He therefore isn't under-rated in his present form.

 

[aussie]

timely article on Kallis by cricinfo today.

 

[Sanz]

Collymore > Bravo.

All the others are quicker than Bravo and on the slow West Indian pitches, that is a real factor. But then I wouldn't expect anything other than superficial analysis from you.

Bravo played 5 tests out of WI as well. If Bravo is a better bowler and according to Jono bowls more than Kallis, then why has he bowled less than Kallis in last 10 matches ?

 

[jot1]

timely article on Kallis by cricinfo today.

Mmmm..I wonder if the writer of this article takes a peek at CW sometimes?

 

[Slow Love™]

There's two different arguments taking place in this thread. One is that Kallis is an underrated all-rounder overall, and the other is more about how he's been performing in recent years.

I do believe Kallis is probably underrated by many (including myself), and as Jono has argued before, it's probably largely due to feelings of dislike he inspires in many cricket fans, due in part to the perception that he's selfish (as well as "cashing in" with the ball against minnows in recent years). I think there's evidence out there to argue occasional selfishness - others may argue that he merely puts a high price on his wicket, and I wouldn't argue that it's bad to do so in of itself, but obviously it can be a problem if the price of your wicket is higher than the prize of actually winning games.

Anyhow, his career stats overall are very impressive, and as far as allrounders go, he probably is a tad underrated by many. I do think many people aren't that fond of cricketers/sportsmen that appear overly "opportunistic" though, at least in that way.

 

[valvolux]

the only reason he would be underrated is because SA haven't beaten the aussies. He's made some good scores, but to get any sort of cred these days you have to be in a side that beats australia. take flintoff, his career record is pretty average at best, but one series has seemingly made people forget that.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Bravo played 5 tests out of WI as well.

Nine Tests actually. Three of which he was picked as a specialist batsman and was unable to bowl. In the other 6:

3-74 and 0-28 v England
4-76 and 0-28 v England
6-55 and 0-41 v England
3-117 v England
2-96 and 0-21 v Australia
6-84 v Australia

24 wickets @ 25.83 with 2x6wicket hauls

If Bravo is a better bowler and according to Jono bowls more than Kallis, then why has he bowled less than Kallis in last 10 matches ?

Because Bravo was injured for 3 of those matches (in New Zealand) and picked as a specialist batsman.
Seriously, is it that hard to get your facts straight before engaging into an argument?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Mmmm..I wonder if the writer of this article takes a peek at CW sometimes?

It's either that or a family-sized coincidence....

 

[marc71178]

Mmmm..I wonder if the writer of this article takes a peek at CW sometimes?

The number of times something we're discussing appears in an article over there within the week is quite uncanny.