Is Ricky Ponting a better batsman than Brian Lara?

[honestbharani]

Yes, but that's why I say it's not near perfect. It should only really give an idea and nothing more. I put it out there merely to show that Ponting was no dummy.

Of course, even if we did that, it's still debatable. For example, Ponting averages I think in the 60s against both Pollock AND Donald but less overall against S.Africa for the decade, so he actually did worse when one wasn't there. Same kinda thing goes for Tendulkar; in the 90s he actually averages in the low 40s against Waqar and Wasim but overall he averages in the 30s so the attack minus one of them got the better of him more. And yet HB brought the point that Ponting didn't score against Waqar and Wasim together (1 match, 2 ducks) whereas when Waqar was absent he scored more; and yet this is the same attack Tendulkar struggled against. Tendulkar actually scored less when it was just McGrath, rather than Warne and McGrath. And of course, there'll be matches where both bowlers may be in the team and yet someone else was troubling one of these batsmen.

And also, very good/great attacks aren't limited to the 90s. For all the flat-track talk, Sri Lanka, Australia and S.Africa have been consistently good for most of this decade. Even NZ for a time with Bond looked dangerous, same with Pakistan, and of course England had an awesome swing quartet.

lol Ikki.. A prety wondeful argument as to why stats can lie!!!

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Someone suggested that we should consider matches in which two great bowlers played together and not the either/or query on statsguru. I did this for Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting with interesting results.

In matches that BOTH Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis played :

Sachin averages 39.71 with 1 century
Lara averages 32.18 with no century
Ponting averages 0 (just 1 match)

In matches that both Donald and Pollock played :

Ponting averages 47.00 with 1 century
Tendulkar averages 38.70 with 1 century
Lara averages 33.33 with no century

In matches that both McGrath and Warne played :

Lara averages 51.03 with 4 centuries
Sachin averages 42.28 with 2 centuries

In matches that both Walsh and Ambrose played :

Sachin averages 64.33 with 0 centuries
Ponting averages 39.71 with 1 century


In conclusion, it looks like :

Against Wasim and Waqar : Tendulkar > Lara > Ponting

Against Donald and Pollock : Ponting > Tendulkar > Lara

Against Walsh and Ambrose : Tendulkar > Ponting

Against McGrath and Warne : Lara > Tendulkar

A side note : Tendulkar managed a century against 3 out of the 4 great attacks, Ponting managed a century against 2 out of the 3 great attacks and Lara managed a century against 1 of the 3 great attacks.


Howzat

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Howzat

NOT OUT. Plus a £10,000 fine for frivolous appealing.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

NOT OUT. Plus a £10,000 fine for frivolous appealing.

At least you didn't say trolling

 

[bagapath]

In conclusion, it looks like :

Against Wasim and Waqar : Tendulkar > Lara > Ponting

Against Donald and Pollock : Ponting > Tendulkar > Lara

Against Walsh and Ambrose : Tendulkar > Ponting

Against McGrath and Warne : Lara > Tendulkar

A side note : Tendulkar managed a century against 3 out of the 4 great attacks, Ponting managed a century against 2 out of the 3 great attacks and Lara managed a century against 1 of the 3 great attacks.


Howzat

Can you post the combined stats for each of these three batters against these attacks?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Can you post the combined stats for each of these three batters against these attacks?

Argh! I just closed cricinfo

Anyway it would defeat the purpose. If one batsman has done extremely well against one attack and piss poor against the others, his overall numbers will still be good if I do what you suggested.

 

[Ikki]

True, but your stats are still somewhat unrealistic for other reasons I explained in my previous post. For example, If you include matches where either Waqar and Wasim bowl Tendulkar's average goes down and Ponting's goes up. And really, judging Ponting on 1 test of which he got 2 ducks?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

True, but your stats are still somewhat unrealistic for other reasons I explained in my previous post. For example, If you include matches where either Waqar and Wasim bowl Tendulkar's average goes down and Ponting's goes up. And really, judging Ponting on 1 test of which he got 2 ducks?

I am not judging anything mate. I just posted the stats because someone asked for it yesterday. My opinion on Ponting vs Lara or SRT vs Lara vs Ponting for that matter hasn't changed one bit.

 

[honestbharani]

Argh! I just closed cricinfo

Anyway it would defeat the purpose. If one batsman has done extremely well against one attack and piss poor against the others, his overall numbers will still be good if I do what you suggested.

Also, it will show up if a guy has done ridiculously well against an attack in juz an one off game and had a continued period of failure against others..


My rating way is simple:


I have seen Lara take on the Aussie attack so many times throughout the 90s and later.. (with McWarne, they were always a gr8 attack, pre 2000 or post 2000 doesn't matter).. The 98 series V South Africa and the Pakistan series in 97 were EASILY one offs IMO...


Same way for Ponting.. His struggles in India are more an anomaly than anything. If Lara was plagued by in fighting and team rebellion (once he was rebelling and once he was being rebelled against), with Ponting, it was more about simply being too anxious... And Sachin really have a gap against any of the greats (not as big as Lara or Ponting) and yet he has also not hit the sort of heights that Lara and Ponting have...


So basically, watching Lara against Australia or England in the swing friendlier conditions in England and against Murali with the whole team going down like nine pins at the other end, it is easy enough to see he was never really going to struggle against any bowling attack for too long. He is simply too good to fail too many times... 97 and 98 were anomalies.. Same with Ponting.. Watching him against Murali, watching him against Donald and Pollock back in 98, it was obvious his travails in India are more of an anomaly, perhaps for differing reasons compared to Lara...


To me, Lara and Sachin are the closest because Ponting (through no real fault of his own) could not face the sort of attacks at his zenith that these two did at their best... As I said, I find it difficult to rank the modern greats like Hayden, Ponting, Dravid and Sehwag (among others) compared to Sachin and Lara..


Between Sachin and Lara, I put Lara very slightly ahead coz I feel his tendency to make the big scores and pile it on is a lot more valuable than an extra 10 or 20 runs when in bad nick...

And Ponting, I think, belongs in their category but because he has not played against the best attacks at his best, I juz find it difficult to rate him vis-a-vis these two.. He is a very close third for me, and well ahead of the rest of the best batters in the 2000s...





EDIT: Meant to say Sachin DOESN'T really have a gap against the greats (at least not ones as big as Lara and Ponting)...

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Also, it will show up if a guy has done ridiculously well against an attack in juz an one off game and had a continued period of failure against others..


My rating way is simple:


I have seen Lara take on the Aussie attack so many times throughout the 90s and later.. (with McWarne, they were always a gr8 attack, pre 2000 or post 2000 doesn't matter).. The 98 series V South Africa and the Pakistan series in 97 were EASILY one offs IMO...


Same way for Ponting.. His struggles in India are more an anomaly than anything. If Lara was plagued by in fighting and team rebellion (once he was rebelling and once he was being rebelled against), with Ponting, it was more about simply being too anxious... And Sachin really have a gap against any of the greats (not as big as Lara or Ponting) and yet he has also not hit the sort of heights that Lara and Ponting have...


So basically, watching Lara against Australia or England in the swing friendlier conditions in England and against Murali with the whole team going down like nine pins at the other end, it is easy enough to see he was never really going to struggle against any bowling attack for too long. He is simply too good to fail too many times... 97 and 98 were anomalies.. Same with Ponting.. Watching him against Murali, watching him against Donald and Pollock back in 98, it was obvious his travails in India are more of an anomaly, perhaps for differing reasons compared to Lara...


To me, Lara and Sachin are the closest because Ponting (through no real fault of his own) could not face the sort of attacks at his zenith that these two did at their best... As I said, I find it difficult to rank the modern greats like Hayden, Ponting, Dravid and Sehwag (among others) compared to Sachin and Lara..


Between Sachin and Lara, I put Lara very slightly ahead coz I feel his tendency to make the big scores and pile it on is a lot more valuable than an extra 10 or 20 runs when in bad nick...

And Ponting, I think, belongs in their category but because he has not played against the best attacks at his best, I juz find it difficult to rate him vis-a-vis these two.. He is a very close third for me, and well ahead of the rest of the best batters in the 2000s...

Hb, from what little I've seen of you, you are one of the better posters around here and I respect your opinion just like I do Ikki's and Bagapth's.. This has been argued to death in these 26 odd pages here. I'll just leave my final thoughts on Tendulkar vs Lara vs Ponting -

Lara - An extraordinary batsman capable of almost superhuman feats on his day. Never quite consistent but the most destructive of the 3 when he was in full cry. Looking back, I feel he underachieved especially outside West Indies. But that's more of a compliment to the great man that despite scoring 11,900 runs, people feel he underachieved.

Tendulkar - Like Lara, a brilliant batsman who never quite reached the heights that Lara did but arguably never reached the lows as well. He was/is a better traveler and for sheer consistency and longevity along with the fact that he had to deal with the pressure of a billion+ cricket crazy people who had unrealistic, almost cruel expectations from him makes me rate him above Lara.

Ponting - Very similar to Tendulkar, and for me, extremely hard to split the two. In every thread/poll asking for the best batsman of the last couple of decades or so, I always have them joint number 1. The one thing that people might hold against Ponting is that he played for a great team. But whatever the case, he was and is a magnificent batsman.


For me it has always been -

1. Tendulkar/Ponting
3. Lara
4. Waugh
5. Dravid

For me, Dravid is also closing the gap between him and the others. But anyway those are my parting thoughts on the subject. I guess no amount of stats, rating etc will change our opinions.

 

[honestbharani]

Hb, from what little I've seen of you, you are one of the better posters around here and I respect your opinion just like I do Ikki's and Bagapth's.. This has been argued to death in these 26 odd pages here. I'll just leave my final thoughts on Tendulkar vs Lara vs Ponting -

Lara - An extraordinary batsman capable of almost superhuman feats on his day. Never quite consistent but the most destructive of the 3 when he was in full cry. Looking back, I feel he underachieved especially outside West Indies. But that's more of a compliment to the great man that despite scoring 11,900 runs, people feel he underachieved.

Tendulkar - Like Lara, a brilliant batsman who never quite reached the heights that Lara did but arguably never reached the lows as well. He was/is a better traveler and for sheer consistency and longevity along with the fact that he had to deal with the pressure of a billion+ cricket crazy people who had unrealistic, almost cruel expectations from him makes me rate him above Lara.

Ponting - Very similar to Tendulkar, and for me, extremely hard to split the two. In every thread/poll asking for the best batsman of the last couple of decades or so, I always have them joint number 1. The one thing that people might hold against Ponting is that he played for a great team. But whatever the case, he was and is a magnificent batsman.


For me it has always been -

1. Tendulkar/Ponting
3. Lara
4. Waugh
5. Dravid

For me, Dravid is also closing the gap between him and the others. But anyway those are my parting thoughts on the subject. I guess no amount of stats, rating etc will change our opinions.

The point about unrealistic expectation is very much true.. And while I may think Lara to be very slightly ahead as a test batsman, I do think as a sportsman/icon Sachin is miles ahead of most.. He has had to deal with amazing pressure and I juz think he is a wonderful human being beyond all this. And perhaps, Sachin would rate that as more than being considered 0.5% better than Lara and Ponting as a batsman..

 

[aussie]

Also, it will show up if a guy has done ridiculously well against an attack in juz an one off game and had a continued period of failure against others..


My rating way is simple:


I have seen Lara take on the Aussie attack so many times throughout the 90s and later.. (with McWarne, they were always a gr8 attack, pre 2000 or post 2000 doesn't matter).. The 98 series V South Africa and the Pakistan series in 97 were EASILY one offs IMO...

Your opinion, we have gone through this before. Donald & Pollock & Wasim/Waqar clearly owned Lara in their own backyards in 98 & 97 respectively

You keep harbouring about the internal problem Lara had before the WI tour to PAK 97 - this is indeed truth. But Tendy as captain facing Donald & co scored hundreds in SA 96/97. So theirfore that means no comparison with "captaincy/board issues" can't be drawn with Lara failures in PAK 97.

Since Tendy cleared proved more to be more versatile home & away from home (the key point) vs those great attacks in 90s.

So basically, watching Lara against Australia or England in the swing friendlier conditions in England and against Murali with the whole team going down like nine pins at the other end, it is easy enough to see he was never really going to struggle against any bowling attack for too long. He is simply too good to fail too many times... 97 and 98 were anomalies.. Same with Ponting.. Watching him against Murali, watching him against Donald and Pollock back in 98, it was obvious his travails in India are more of an anomaly, perhaps for differing reasons compared to Lara...

Well technically Lara struggled a bit in England againts the only two times he faced a quality England attack in England (2000 & 2004). I would say 2000 is purely down to the fact he had just returned from a year out the game & batted with shades due to an eye injury. But in 2004 Flintoff & co clearly troubled him.

The 95 ENG attack in ENG, that Lara smoked was a joke attack.

 

[MrIncredible]

Your opinion, we have gone through this before. Donald & Pollock & Wasim/Waqar clearly owned Lara in their own backyards in 98 & 97 respectively

You keep harbouring about the internal problem Lara had before the WI tour to PAK 97 - this is indeed truth. But Tendy as captain facing Donald & co scored hundreds in SA 96/97. So theirfore that means no comparison with "captaincy/board issues" can't be drawn with Lara failures in PAK 97.

Since Tendy cleared proved more to be more versatile home & away from home (the key point) vs those great attacks in 90s.







Well technically Lara struggled a bit in England againts the only two times he faced a quality England attack in England (2000 & 2004). I would say 2000 is purely down to the fact he had just returned from a year out the game & batted with shades due to an eye injury. But in 2004 Flintoff & co clearly troubled him.

The 95 ENG attack in ENG, that Lara smoked was a joke attack.

Would like to know which current Eng bowler is better than a 90s Darren Gough and Angus Fraser.

 

[MrIncredible]

Hb, from what little I've seen of you, you are one of the better posters around here and I respect your opinion just like I do Ikki's and Bagapth's.. This has been argued to death in these 26 odd pages here. I'll just leave my final thoughts on Tendulkar vs Lara vs Ponting -

Lara - An extraordinary batsman capable of almost superhuman feats on his day. Never quite consistent but the most destructive of the 3 when he was in full cry. Looking back, I feel he underachieved especially outside West Indies. But that's more of a compliment to the great man that despite scoring 11,900 runs, people feel he underachieved.

Tendulkar - Like Lara, a brilliant batsman who never quite reached the heights that Lara did but arguably never reached the lows as well. He was/is a better traveler and for sheer consistency and longevity along with the fact that he had to deal with the pressure of a billion+ cricket crazy people who had unrealistic, almost cruel expectations from him makes me rate him above Lara.

Ponting - Very similar to Tendulkar, and for me, extremely hard to split the two. In every thread/poll asking for the best batsman of the last couple of decades or so, I always have them joint number 1. The one thing that people might hold against Ponting is that he played for a great team. But whatever the case, he was and is a magnificent batsman.


For me it has always been -

1. Tendulkar/Ponting
3. Lara
4. Waugh
5. Dravid

For me, Dravid is also closing the gap between him and the others. But anyway those are my parting thoughts on the subject. I guess no amount of stats, rating etc will change our opinions.

Tendy: Great Great batsman who achieved a level of consistency over a long career that few could match. A better traveller than Lara and slightly more consistent. Against the best did ok (series wise) but never ever dominated. Very good vs pace great vs spin. I think he is overhyped by his adoring billions who rate him 2nd to Bradman even though he doesnt come 2nd 3rd 4th 5th or 6th to Bradman in ne measurable statistic (ave, conversion, big series etc). Arguably had similar lows to Lara (ex Oz series in India in 04, NZ home and away around the same time etc) but never reached Lara's heights.

Ponting: Great great batsman who showed his class vs the great bowlers of the time definitely more than Lara or Tendy. Another very good traveller and just slightly below Tendy in this category and a little ahead of Lara. Great vs pace and very good vs spin. Has a real strong case for being 2nd best to Bradman; has excellent conversion, high average, a few high scoring series, 3 tests with 2 centuries in each innings. Like Ikki said prior a cv thats almost as complete in batting as say a Marshall is in bowling (greatest bowler btw imo). Consistency early on wasnt quite there but when he found himself he took it to another level (not quite to Lara's however).

Lara: greatest of the greats of his time imo. Against the best had similar results to Tendy (ie averaged in the 30s ) with one exception. Good vs pace, exceptional vs spin. Very good traveller but the worst of the 3 in contention. And by worse i mean Lara was a very good traveller but in the context of the other 3 he wasnt at their level. Slightly and i do mean slightly less consistent than Tendy and Ponting but could dominate in ways they never have vs quality attacks. Another who has a case for being 2nd to the don. Although average is not that high, does have huge series outputs: 798, 765, 688 etc. Also has huge scores that are 2nd to the Don. Definitely had his share of lows Oz 96/97 and 00, RSA 98, Pak 97, Eng 04, Nz 06 (i think) but Lara is nt unique in this context as the other 2 have had their fair share of similar lows but have never reached his heights (actually maybe Ponting but not Tendy). As a result

Lara> or = Ponting> Tendy

 

[MrIncredible]

Your opinion, we have gone through this before. Donald & Pollock & Wasim/Waqar clearly owned Lara in their own backyards in 98 & 97 respectively

You keep harbouring about the internal problem Lara had before the WI tour to PAK 97 - this is indeed truth. But Tendy as captain facing Donald & co scored hundreds in SA 96/97. So theirfore that means no comparison with "captaincy/board issues" can't be drawn with Lara failures in PAK 97.

Since Tendy cleared proved more to be more versatile home & away from home (the key point) vs those great attacks in 90s.





Well technically Lara struggled a bit in England againts the only two times he faced a quality England attack in England (2000 & 2004). I would say 2000 is purely down to the fact he had just returned from a year out the game & batted with shades due to an eye injury. But in 2004 Flintoff & co clearly troubled him.

The 95 ENG attack in ENG, that Lara smoked was a joke attack.

No he didnt. Both averaged in the 30s vs the great attacks of the 90s that both faced. I'll give u that Tendy was a bit better away but that would imply that Tendy was good/poor vs these same attacks at home where as Lara was good/great vs these great attacks at home. And unless Im missing sumthing pitches in the WI are far more condusive to seam than are the wickets in India.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Tendy: Great Great batsman who achieved a level of consistency over a long career that few could match. A better traveller than Lara and slightly more consistent. Against the best did ok (series wise) but never ever dominated. Very good vs pace great vs spin. I think he is overhyped by his adoring billions who rate him 2nd to Bradman even though he doesnt come 2nd 3rd 4th 5th or 6th to Bradman in ne measurable statistic (ave, conversion, big series etc). Arguably had similar lows to Lara (ex Oz series in India in 04, NZ home and away around the same time etc) but never reached Lara's heights.

Ponting: Great great batsman who showed his class vs the great bowlers of the time definitely more than Lara or Tendy. Another very good traveller and just slightly below Tendy in this category and a little ahead of Lara. Great vs pace and very good vs spin. Has a real strong case for being 2nd best to Bradman; has excellent conversion, high average, a few high scoring series, 3 tests with 2 centuries in each innings. Like Ikki said prior a cv thats almost as complete in batting as say a Marshall is in bowling (greatest bowler btw imo). Consistency early on wasnt quite there but when he found himself he took it to another level (not quite to Lara's however).

Lara: greatest of the greats of his time imo. Against the best had similar results to Tendy (ie averaged in the 30s ) with one exception. Good vs pace, exceptional vs spin. Very good traveller but the worst of the 3 in contention. And by worse i mean Lara was a very good traveller but in the context of the other 3 he wasnt at their level. Slightly and i do mean slightly less consistent than Tendy and Ponting but could dominate in ways they never have vs quality attacks. Another who has a case for being 2nd to the don. Although average is not that high, does have huge series outputs: 798, 765, 688 etc. Also has huge scores that are 2nd to the Don. Definitely had his share of lows Oz 96/97 and 00, RSA 98, Pak 97, Eng 04, Nz 06 (i think) but Lara is nt unique in this context as the other 2 have had their fair share of similar lows but have never reached his heights (actually maybe Ponting but not Tendy). As a result

Lara> or = Ponting> Tendy

I don't understand why you quoted me ? Do you have an issue with me rating SRT and Ponting ahead of Lara ? Just for the record, it's not just his "adoring billions" who rate SRT second to the Don, Wisden does as well (and a number of greats). Even in the "great bowler from both ends" theory endorsed by you, Lara comes out third best. Despite all this, I have no issues with you or anyone else rating Lara ahead of anyone else but I don't really see why you chose to quote me here.

 

[MrIncredible]

I don't understand why you quoted me ? Do you have an issue with me rating SRT and Ponting ahead of Lara ? Just for the record, it's not just his "adoring billions" who rate SRT second to the Don, Wisden does as well (and a number of greats). Even in the "great bowler from both ends" theory endorsed by you, Lara comes out third best. Despite all this, I have no issues with you or anyone else rating Lara ahead of anyone else but I don't really see why you chose to quote me here.

Dont know y u taking it so personal but i quoted u because i wanted to make an analysis in a similar style to what u did. If ne thing, i was trying to compliment u on the way u laid out ur argument.

I dont care who rates Lara where for as far as im concerned the 2nd best to the Don is open to ne number of batsmen with very little to choose between these batsmen. However, i dont think Tendy has as strong a case as Lara simple as that.

 

[aussie]

Would like to know which current Eng bowler is better than a 90s Darren Gough and Angus Fraser.

Gough was raw in 95. In 95 Fraser was the only good bowler. The ENG attacks that Lara faced in 2000 & 2004 are FAR better than the one in 95.

No he didnt. Both averaged in the 30s vs the great attacks of the 90s that both faced. I'll give u that Tendy was a bit better away but that would imply that Tendy was good/poor vs these same attacks at home where as Lara was good/great vs these great attacks at home. And unless Im missing sumthing pitches in the WI are far more condusive to seam than are the wickets in India.

Exactly. That versatality as a traveller in the 90s makes Tendy better overall than Prince of Port-of-Spain as you know, ive always maintained.

The other factors regarding runs @ home vs very good/great attacks we have gone through before to the death, you know my position my friend.

 

[zaremba]

Voted for Lara but not quite sure why - sometimes I think Ponting is the best batsman I've ever seen. 2 absolutely outstanding players that we have been very fortunate to watch.

 

[MrIncredible]

Gough was raw in 95. In 95 Fraser was the only good bowler. The ENG attacks that Lara faced in 2000 & 2004 are FAR better than the one in 95.




Exactly. That versatality as a traveller in the 90s makes Tendy better overall than Prince of Port-of-Spain as you know, ive always maintained.

The other factors regarding runs @ home vs very good/great attacks we have gone through before to the death, you know my position my friend.

Fair enough. U say Tendy by a small margin, I say Lara by a small margin nothing wrong with that at all. Atleast we can agree that both are all time greats and (along with Ponting) are some of the batsmen that can be considered next to the DOn