Is it too early to declare Dale Steyn as an all-time great?

[Zinzan]

^ Nah, KK is right. If you want context, look at the numbers. Since the year 2000 twenty-five batsman have averaged >50 (qual: 1000 runs)

yet only eleven bowlers have averaged <25 with the ball (qual: 50 wickets) & only five under 23. There was a time when averaging 50 with the bat & 23 with the ball was sort-of par.

 

[vcs]

Eh, I don't buy all this "all pitches these days are roads" nonsense at all. Pitches are as flat as the bowlers bowling on them, there just aren't that many great bowlers going around in world cricket at the moment IMO.

 

[Blaze 18]

^ Nah, KK is right. If you want context, look at the numbers. Since the year 2000 twenty-five batsman have averaged >50 (qual: 1000 runs)

yet only eleven bowlers have averaged <25 with the ball (qual: 50 wickets) & only five under 23. There was a time when averaging 50 with the bat & 23 with the ball was sort-of par.

I was only replying to the highlighted part.

 

[Blaze 18]

Eh, I don't buy all this "all pitches these days are roads" nonsense at all. Pitches are as flat as the bowlers bowling on them, there just aren't that many great bowlers going around in world cricket at the moment IMO.

 

[Zinzan]

Eh, I don't buy all this "all pitches these days are roads" nonsense at all. Pitches are as flat as the bowlers bowling on them, there just aren't that many great bowlers going around in world cricket at the moment IMO.

I'm guessing you didn't watch any cricket in the 1980s & to a lesser extent the 90s then?

 

[vcs]

I'm guessing you didn't watch any cricket in the 1980s & to a lesser extent the 90s then?

Been watching since early '90s.

 

[kingkallis]

Well, I would have said Zaheer > Johnson but the fat Khan is so fragile these days, I'd keep him out of any such equations!

 

[kingkallis]

Eh, I don't buy all this "all pitches these days are roads" nonsense at all. Pitches are as flat as the bowlers bowling on them, there just aren't that many great bowlers going around in world cricket at the moment IMO.

You mean to say Mark Waugh, Mark Taylor, Mohammad Azharudding, Martin Crowe, Andrew Jones, Stephen Fleming, Micheal Atherton, Damien Martyn, Saeed Anwar, Darryll Cullinan etc were all so pathetic that they could not average 50 during the 90s?

I strongly believe that the wickets have changed a lot so the games could go onto 5th day. You will rarely see a wicket assisting bowlers these days.

 

[Zinzan]

Well, I would have said Zaheer > Johnson but the fat Khan is so fragile these days, I'd keep him out of any such equations!

That's a tough one. Zaheer has become an intelligent and canny operator in the last 18 months & has been relatively consistent. On the other hand, Johnson has either been dire or a world-beater, depending on the day of the week.

 

[vcs]

You mean to say Mark Waugh, Mark Taylor, Mohammad Azharudding, Martin Crowe, Andrew Jones, Stephen Fleming, Micheal Atherton, Damien Martyn, Saeed Anwar, Darryll Cullinan etc were all so pathetic that they could not average 50 during the 90s?

I strongly believe that the wickets have changed a lot so the games could go onto 5th day. You will rarely see a wicket assisting bowlers these days.

Well, like I said, they faced greater bowlers and tougher attacks on the whole, with 2/3 great bowlers, who gave you very little breathing room. It's possible that tracks are a bit flatter this decade but not by the extent stated, IMO. Out of interest, when exactly do people think this pitch-flattening business all over the world started?

 

[Furball]

However, he is more expensive than the other two because of his very attacking bowling.

He's not more expensive than Pollock.

 

[morgieb]

The pitches have been pretty shocking recently, but generally good bowlers overcome this. No doubt that the fact that a lot of bowlers are pretty dire has an impact too.

 

[Blaze 18]

Well, I would have said Zaheer > Johnson but the fat Khan is so fragile these days, I'd keep him out of any such equations!

I would have both James Anderson and Zaheer Khan over him. There are probably a few others you could make cases for, too.

 

[kingkallis]

Well, like I said, they faced greater bowlers and tougher attacks on the whole, with 2/3 great bowlers, who gave you very little breathing room. It's possible that tracks are a bit flatter this decade but not by the extent stated, IMO. Out of interest, when exactly do people think this pitch-flattening business all over the world started?

You can never judge bowlers when you have flat tracks. Zaheer, Anderson or Jerome Taylor could have been totally different bowlers has they played in early 90s.

Out of interest, when exactly do people think this pitch-flattening business all over the world started?

Maybe post 2000.

 

[Bahnz]

I'm not sure I entirely buy the flat track argument either. Steyn has also played most of his career in South Africa, where out of all the cricketing countries, save maybe England, the pitches have most frequently retained the bounce and movement of yesteryear.

If he can get to about 350+ test wickets with an average of under 25, I reckon he'd have ATG status locked up forever. In either case, he's been comfortably the best fast bowler in the world for the last 3 years, so he must be getting pretty close already.

 

[Zinzan]

I'm not sure I entirely buy the flat track argument either. .

Just look at NZ wickets for a start. Up to around 2003, we consistently had some genuine seaming green-tracks i.e Indian series '99 of '02. Since then, there's been nothing or the sort.

 

[GotSpin]

Most pitches aside from those in England and some in South Africa have flattened out drastically over the last 10 years. The batsmen of the 80s and 90s were no less talented, but faced a plethora of great bowlers who had pitches that enabled an even contest between bat and ball.

 

[Bahnz]

Just look at NZ wickets for a start. Up to around 2003, we consistently had some genuine seaming green-tracks i.e Indian series '99 of '02. Since then, there's been nothing or the sort.

I'm not denying that tracks haven't become better, but I'm just not sure that it would have any real affect on the stats of truely great players. McGrath played a good chunk of his career in the era of better batting tracks and he only got better as he went along. Same goes for Warne and Murali. And Steyn himself averages just 20 from five tests in India. I tend to agree that the glut of runs in test cricket probably has more to do with the decline in quality of bowling than the flatter wickets (though they are undoubtedly themselves a contributing factor). I think the advent of high scoring one day cricket has probably discouraged a lot of youngsters from becoming bowlers, reducing the pool of potential greats significantly.

 

[GotSpin]

The true great bowlers will prosper under any conditions, just as the great batsmen will do as well. However, the flatter wickets have enabled the technically weaker batsmen to flourish and reduced the usefulness of bowlers the tier below

 

[Xuhaib]

I like my ATG to have atleast 300 wickets so yes in that regard Steyn in still atleast 15 test matches away from the tag but I am sure he will get there.