is hayden a slogger with lots of luck or just a very good batsmen

[Bazza]

Strangely enough when I couldn't sleep last night I started thinking about this and I decided I had been a bit harsh on Hayden. I also saw a bit of him batting in the second innings and he looked good. I would revise my statement slightly to say that maybe he isn't necessarily any luckier than anyone else, but for me to change my mind he needs to score more runs when the going is tough, and against better attacks and away from home.

Hayden has beat up on India and scored 380 against Zimbabwe but otherwise averages high 40s which is more what I would expect from him by the end of his career (realistically it won't drop that low).

 

[Eclipse]

Not very many so far.

according to you.

Just because England are souch a pathetic catching team and made Hayden look like a fool because he was droped so many time's does not mean he has that kind of luck all the time.

It's just a precived idea that you have and you dont have any evidence to back it up.

 

[Eclipse]

Strangely enough when I couldn't sleep last night I started thinking about this and I decided I had been a bit harsh on Hayden. I also saw a bit of him batting in the second innings and he looked good. I would revise my statement slightly to say that maybe he isn't necessarily any luckier than anyone else, but for me to change my mind he needs to score more runs when the going is tough, and against better attacks and away from home.

Hayden has beat up on India and scored 380 against Zimbabwe but otherwise averages high 40s which is more what I would expect from him by the end of his career (realistically it won't drop that low).

Unfortunatly Australia dont get themself's in tough situation's very often that's probably why Hayden is unproven in sough situations.

 

[Richard]

according to you.

Just because England are souch a pathetic catching team and made Hayden look like a fool because he was droped so many time's does not mean he has that kind of luck all the time.

It's just a precived idea that you have and you dont have any evidence to back it up.

The Pakistan series before that contained more than a little in the way of let-offs. So did 3 out of the centuries he scored in 2001\02, at The Wanderers, SCG and Adelaide Oval, in each he was dropped before reaching 50.
He hasn't been as lucky for the rest of his career than he was in the 2002\03 Ashes, but he has still had plenty.
You also seem to manage to phrase it as if the fact that we tend to drop so many catches against you is a slur on you, rather than us, and doesn't reflect anything about your batsmen's lack of ability.

 

[marc71178]

Not very many so far.

Got anything to back this up or is it just another assumption you're making to fit your ideals?

 

[marc71178]

Unfortunatly Australia dont get themself's in tough situation's very often

Unfortunately for us, or unfortunately for Australia?!!!

 

[CDAK]

As far as luck is concerned, I don't think Hayden is very ahead of Ponting. He has proved his talent by scoring runs in all weathers(India,Sharjah, SA,..). His performance agnst India(in India, where Mr.Ponting scored 0,0,1,1..) was chanceless.
What he lacks, according to me, is style(like most of AUSSIE batsmen).Like Rik said, he is more brutal. His Physique is the reason for that lack of style and the same is his advavtage while playing long innings and facing tall bowlers( SRT suffers in those 2 cases).
He has to prove his talent against the new look Pakistan team(which is growing to be the best team in the world)
I predict the team rating in 2005 will be
Pakistan
SA- Srilanka
West Indies-Aus
India-England
NZ( if their top players are playing for atleast 20 matches together, they can be within4)

 

[marc71178]

I predict the team rating in 2005 will be
Pakistan
SA- Srilanka
West Indies-Aus
India-England
NZ( if their top players are playing for atleast 20 matches together, they can be within4)

Out of interest how do you rate SL, and to an extent WI so highly and Aus so low, when we're talking about 12 months time - SL just do not have the bowling attack to be a top side, possessing as they do just 1 world class bowler and 1 reasonable support.

 

[CDAK]

Out of interest how do you rate SL, and to an extent WI so highly and Aus so low, when we're talking about 12 months time - SL just do not have the bowling attack to be a top side, possessing as they do just 1 world class bowler and 1 reasonable support.

I always believe that Srilanka is having equal capability that of australia(except for a commanding type captain which they lost after Arjuna retired.).If they play in full of their form, they can beat any team.
Srilanka is having enough pace bowlers(most of them can bowl over 140's) to support Vaas.(probably here, Aus may win a bit , but let's see whether McGrath can comeback to his form).Australia's pace attack is getting aged(barring Brett lee who is not much of use.) and no real young talent is seen.
Ponting's australia has to lose only(this team is almost 90% of Steve's who won all Glories only), not to gain.( apart from Clarke, aus is not having a genuine talent till now).
West Indies(I hope if they play with some spirit) can become a SA like team.( a lot of genuine talent is there. Fielding and inconsistency was their prblm.Now it is getting to be resolved).
Yes, I could've written AUS at the second or third (to be realistic)by considering the 12 month period; but I would like to see WIndies & Lanka coming to the top side.( ofcourse my India,too; but there's no real chance. I think if Sachin had played in Aus team, he could have been an all time legend and all his records would've been untouched for ever.)

 

[marc71178]

I always believe that Srilanka is having equal capability that of australia

Batting is worse than Aus's for sure.

Srilanka is having enough pace bowlers(most of them can bowl over 140's) to support Vaas.

Are you having a laugh? They have no decent seamers at all to support Vaas.

 

[krkode]

All you people speaking about Hayden's lack of style; know that style is probably the least important thing to a batsman. Runs are, and Hayden delivers.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with his style. He's just a different kind of batsman. He won't score like Dravid, he won't score like Lara, he won't score like Waugh. He plays Hayden-style. Brute force is a style in and of itself.

If *you* think it looks ugly, then too bad. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. *I*, on the other hand, love to watch Hayden bat (except against India) :saint:

 

[Rik]

All you people speaking about Hayden's lack of style; know that style is probably the least important thing to a batsman. Runs are, and Hayden delivers.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with his style. He's just a different kind of batsman. He won't score like Dravid, he won't score like Lara, he won't score like Waugh. He plays Hayden-style. Brute force is a style in and of itself.

If *you* think it looks ugly, then too bad. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. *I*, on the other hand, love to watch Hayden bat (except against India) :saint:

Heeeeeyy...if I remember correctly you rarely if ever see cricket matches due to living in America, so how can you say you love to watch him bat?

Seriously I agree with what you say, he does deliver a lot, but tends to when the pressure is off, I mean when there's a target of 180 to get he will usually blast an unbeaten century. Due to Australia's dominance he will rarely get big pressure innings. Ponting, coming in after a solid partnership like Hayden and Langer has the same. But both are fine players, I just don't think if certain teams weren't so weak, that Hayden would have a world record or an average of 58. He's undoubtably a good player, if kind of weak against bounce bowlers like Caddick, and in England he was not very impressive. He also scores most of his runs in Australia, where the pitches are often perfect for batting. He's a very good batsman, I don't believe he's a great, I feel that circumstances have come together to allow him to put up a record which can be compared to greats of the game, but he's like Gilchrist, a fine player with a very good record, but a record which is slightly inflated. In any other team Gilchrist would probably average about 44-48, Hayden probably the same. This is just my view though.

 

[krkode]

I watched him for a while before I left for the USA and I watched him in some games in the world cup. Overall, I watch him in my head. He's just got that quality to play games in my head.

But I agree with you. He does have it somewhat easy.

I wonder how he would perform if he was on the Indian side or the West Indian side. That migth be interesting. :P

But that's an unfair comparison because he's *not* on that side. You have to take him for where he plays and what he plays. That he is on the Aussie side, I guess, is luck, but that he scores lots of runs isn't.

Does anyone know why he was such a mediocre batsman in his youth? Or just couldn't cut it at the test level early on? What happened to him?

 

[Rik]

I watched him for a while before I left for the USA and I watched him in some games in the world cup. Overall, I watch him in my head. He's just got that quality to play games in my head.

But I agree with you. He does have it somewhat easy.

I wonder how he would perform if he was on the Indian side or the West Indian side. That migth be interesting. :P

But that's an unfair comparison because he's *not* on that side. You have to take him for where he plays and what he plays. That he is on the Aussie side, I guess, is luck, but that he scores lots of runs isn't.

Does anyone know why he was such a mediocre batsman in his youth? Or just couldn't cut it at the test level early on? What happened to him?

He had a few technical flaws, quite a flat track and weak team bully. Has allways had a superb record in FC Cricket but those flaws and his mentality didn't help. He worked hard and fixed some of them. I still think if you wind him up and then bowl short of a length at him he will try and hit you to kingdom come and get out, he did that in the ODIs in England. At the moment concentration seems to be his major flaw because he does get distracted a lot. At the moment his main weaknesses would be against aggressive short bowling aimed at his head (it's worked most times I've seen him) or yorking him because the yorker is such a deadly ball to a tall batsman, I should know, and it's got Will Jefferson a lot lately and he's 7ft!!!

 

[krkode]

Yes, Hayden should be set up against McGrath and Ambrose...:P

 

[Craig]

Hayden is naturally aggressive, but at times he does border onto arrogrance.

 

[Eclipse]

He had a few technical flaws, quite a flat track and weak team bully. Has allways had a superb record in FC Cricket but those flaws and his mentality didn't help. He worked hard and fixed some of them. I still think if you wind him up and then bowl short of a length at him he will try and hit you to kingdom come and get out, he did that in the ODIs in England. At the moment concentration seems to be his major flaw because he does get distracted a lot. At the moment his main weaknesses would be against aggressive short bowling aimed at his head (it's worked most times I've seen him) or yorking him because the yorker is such a deadly ball to a tall batsman, I should know, and it's got Will Jefferson a lot lately and he's 7ft!!!

It's not that he is a poor player of the Hook shot it's that because of his aggresivness he want's to hit everyting and can somtimes play at bouncers that should be left alone.

He still scores very well in that area so if you cant bowl good bouncers then you should stear away from them compleatly.

 

[age_master]

Hayden

vs RSA - 51
vs Pak - 61
vs Eng - 49
vs Ban - 30.5
vs Zim - 250 (2 matches)
vs NZ - 48
vs WI - 42
vs Ind - 90

mardly a weak team bully, an average of just 30 against Bangladesh and less than 50 against England...

 

[Tarsh]

There is absolutely no way you can say Hayden is lucky! Lucky to get a 2nd chance maybe but that's where the luck ends. He worked so bloody hard on his game before the tour to India in 2001 and funnily enough that's where his fantastic form really got going.

 

[marc71178]

Hayden is naturally aggressive, but at times he does border onto arrogrance.

Is that a bad thing though - think of one of the all time greatests from the West Indies - Sir Isaac...