Is global spin bowling about to decline?

[Burgey]

Is it any coincidence two eras regarded as historically strong for spinners were also heavy for run scoring? Thinking the 2000s and the 1930s.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Rizwan and Liton. Dickwella is good too. Watling retired last year and he's ATG.

Blundell averages 41, and 44.66 as keeper. Excellent against pace (which is why he scored 100 at the MCG as an opener). Needs to improve against spin (horror tour of India last year).

Also I expect Carey, Verryenne, and Da Silva to kick on with their batting. All look better than their averages (low 30s).

 

[Starfighter]

Let's contextualise what has so far been a rather subjective discussion with some basic stats, which are at least somewhat objective.

 

[subshakerz]

Is it any coincidence two eras regarded as historically strong for spinners were also heavy for run scoring? Thinking the 2000s and the 1930s.

Yeah I thought this too. Maybe spinners prosper when pacers cant finish the job and it requires a longer innings. But then spinners prospered in the 70s and 90s also.

 

[Starfighter]

Yeah, I think the fact that Lyon has played a decade without any competition tells something about how exceptional the Murali/Warne era was.

It really does not. They were two players, there are other players and other teams. England and India, for instance, have done better since they retired.

It's not even a true statement in a sense. O'Keefe maintained a far better FC record than Lyon throughout his career. The fact he was never given a proper run when averaging 24.7 while people like Beer and Doherty were selected is going to be one of those future cricket mysteries.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

We’ll be at 23.5 degrees of tilt for some time, spinning at 1,180 km/h.

So global spin is not a concern.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'm pretty convinced that strategies centered around seam bowling are superior to strategies entered around spin. It's no coincidence to me that India's greatest period of Test success has come when they've developed the best pace attack of their history.

And as even countries that are traditional bastions of spin bowling come to realize that and emphasize seam bowling, I think the decline will be inevitable. Not to say a great spinner isn't an asset to a Test side, they most certainly are, but going forward as pitches become less conducive to spin they'll have to offer something else as well, as the current Indian spinners do.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm pretty convinced that strategies centered around seam bowling are superior to strategies entered around spin. It's no coincidence to me that India's greatest period of Test success has come when they've developed the best pace attack of their history.

And as even countries that are traditional bastions of spin bowling come to realize that and emphasize seam bowling, I think the decline will be inevitable. Not to say a great spinner isn't an asset to a Test side, they most certainly are, but going forward as pitches become less conducive to spin they'll have to offer something else as well, as the current Indian spinners do.

No teams deliberately centers their strategy around spin unless they have to. But having a wordclass spin bowler along with quality pace bowling is the best all-round combo. Exceptions are 80 WIs and Smith's SA but either of those attacks would have welcomed a high quality spinner.

Even in SENA countries, a good spinner can win at least a game a series as long as the pitch is roughed up and its 4/5th day.

India didnt have that great pace attack before yet between 2007-2011 they won in England and NZ and drew in SA which even this team hasnt done. Zaheer plus Kumble/Harbi was the winning combo.

Even Kohli's team overseas victories in SL, WI and Australia needed vital contributions from Ashwin. At home their pace bowling has been support. Their pace attack has made them feared but every teams needs a quality spinner.

 

[Daemon]

New Zealand didn’t for a while. Granted they had friendly schedules etc but they still won the WTC with no spinners of note.

 

[SteveNZ]

Yeah only Pakistan have no decent spinners where they should have at least one. Even England have Leach who's at least better than Giles/Emburey/basically anyone between Underwood and Swann. NZ have never had a world class spinner* and just about everyone else (except Pakistan) has got one. Axar and P Jayasuriya look awesome. Plus, spinners normally just spring out of nowhere. No one's looking at Lyon before he debuted and saying there's a 400 wicket bowler.

*They just don't pick him which is worse.

If you told an NZ fan this post would occur, and be completely true, a few years ago I think they would have either not believed you, or hurled themselves off a cliff. But it is true, and it's horrifying. Please excuse me while I go bungy jumping, sans cord.

New Zealand didn’t for a while. Granted they had friendly schedules etc but they still won the WTC with no spinners of note.

We played two Tests in the sub-continent during that WTC cycle. Won one, lost one. Never played outside Australasia for the other four series' (apart from the final). So that's a bit of a red herring. We also had (have, but he might be done) Neil Wagner who fills the flat-track role so admirably.

 

[SteveNZ]

I feel like with the short sharp career of Ajantha Mendis, and the rise of T20 cricket, there has been something of a revisioning of what spin bowlers are and what they do.

I'll hijack another thread by saying that T20 is a major cause in the demise of spin bowling at Test level, just as I believe it's been for Test batting.

How many under 30s spinners are relevant now? Axar is probably the only one. Mehidy is OK and Embuldeniya the same, but hardly superstars.

The incentive to be a big-spinner, big-flighted attacking spinner has never been less.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Adithya Ashok is NZ's great spin hope but he is only 19 and hasn't played a 1st class match yet. There are also high hopes for Tim (son of Chris) Pringle who is also 19 and is playing for the Netherlands.

 

[subshakerz]

It really does not. They were two players, there are other players and other teams. England and India, for instance, have done better since they retired.

It's not even a true statement in a sense. O'Keefe maintained a far better FC record than Lyon throughout his career. The fact he was never given a proper run when averaging 24.7 while people like Beer and Doherty were selected is going to be one of those future cricket mysteries.

I consider a wordlclass spinner one who is a consistent matchwinning threat if the conditions are right, home and away.

Looking at it from the mid 90s onwards, you can consider the following:

India has normally had 1-2 worldclass spinners operating most of the time. Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Australia have had at least one.

Outside of a small window in which Swann was there, England havent produced a worldclass spinner.

NZ had Vettori who falls a bit short of worldclass IMO. SA haven't produced one though Maharaj seems at least Vettori class. WI haven't had any.

Generally the norm has been for there to be 4-5 worldclass spinners operating in world cricket at any point in time, mostly from the subcontinent and Australia. The question is if that can continue.

 

[subshakerz]

I'll hijack another thread by saying that T20 is a major cause in the demise of spin bowling at Test level, just as I believe it's been for Test batting.

How many under 30s spinners are relevant now? Axar is probably the only one. Mehidy is OK and Embuldeniya the same, but hardly superstars.

The incentive to be a big-spinner, big-flighted attacking spinner has never been less.

I think the incentive is still there. Whether T20 has messed with the MO of spinners is another question though.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Decline in spin bowling? I don't know what you mean. We've just had the fantastic Michael Bracewell selected in a Test match as a frontline spinner. I mean, either that tells you that spin bowling is absolutely fine-and-dandy-thankyouverymuch, or that NZ's respect for England's batting against spin was slightly anti-hyperbolic.

 

[Starfighter]

I consider a wordlclass spinner one who is a consistent matchwinning threat if the conditions are right, home and away.

Looking at it from the mid 90s onwards, you can consider the following:

India has normally had 1-2 worldclass spinners operating most of the time. Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Australia have had at least one.

Outside of a small window in which Swann was there, England havent produced a worldclass spinner.

NZ had Vettori who falls a bit short of worldclass IMO. SA haven't produced one though Maharaj seems at least Vettori class. WI haven't had any.

Generally the norm has been for there to be 4-5 worldclass spinners operating in world cricket at any point in time, mostly from the subcontinent and Australia. The question is if that can continue.

What you've written doesn't engage with what I said.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's not even a true statement in a sense. O'Keefe maintained a far better FC record than Lyon throughout his career. The fact he was never given a proper run when averaging 24.7 while people like Beer and Doherty were selected is going to be one of those future cricket mysteries.

Can you not remind me of this disgrace of a non-selection

 

[subshakerz]

What you've written doesn't engage with what I said.

Sorry it went on a tangent. More relevant to the point that global spin is less about one country specifically and about four countries maintaining their regular supplies.

 

[Gob]

Titmus lol

His middle school years must have been terrible

 

[Gob]

SOK bowled darts. The Lyon (as Sanath said it) was better