Is Chris Gayle some sort of perverted misogynist or can everyone just settle down?

[Dan]

Think about a time you were really, really sad. Completely cut up about something that meant a lot to you, that nobody else could understand. Now imagine sharing that moment with other people, who can never truly know how much that thing meant to you.

And their reaction?

"You shouldn't be sad about that!"
"Oh come on, you should be happy, think about all those starving kids in Africa, this is nothing."
"Get over it, you can only be sad because you had it in the first place."
"You're overreacting, it really isn't that big a deal."
"You should be more sad! How can you only be this sad, you heartless monster?"



Obviously this is far from perfect in imagining what its like to be put in the situation Mel McLaughlin found herself faced with, and I'm not attempting to conflate the situations at all, but from a 'why shouldn't we deny experiences?' standpoint, I don't think you need much more than some really basic empathy to 'get' it.

 

[sledger]

It has been suggested on a number of occasions by more than 1 person.

No it hasn't. You're just determined to claim that it has, for some reason.

 

[GIMH]

Think about a time you were really, really sad. Completely cut up about something that meant a lot to you, that nobody else could understand. Now imagine sharing that moment with other people, who can never truly know how much that thing meant to you.

And their reaction?

"You shouldn't be sad about that!"
"Oh come on, you should be happy, think about all those starving kids in Africa, this is nothing."
"Get over it, you can only be sad because you had it in the first place."
"You're overreacting, it really isn't that big a deal."
"You should be more sad! How can you only be this sad, you heartless monster?"



Obviously this is far from perfect in imagining what its like to be put in the situation Mel McLaughlin found herself faced with, and I'm not attempting to conflate the situations at all, but from a 'why shouldn't we deny experiences?' standpoint, I don't think you need much more than some really basic empathy to 'get' it.

No of course I agree with this but I don't really think we are in the realm of being offended there. That's telling other people what they should and shouldn''t care about. Hell when the whites got relegated to non-league people found my anguish ridiculous, to hell with them, what would they know? Yeah, I agree exactly with the example

I think the realm of being offended is way, way broader than 'experiences' and I think my previous post explains why I think this

 

[Dan]

I can see what Dan is saying, but I certainly don't always think that because someone says they are offended means you should change your behaviour.

Extreme example - I've known people to be offended by pro-gay sentiments.

Though I agree with the 'don't be a dick' sentiment, the same can often work to the other party. If my religion offends you, should I not ever mention it when you're around? If you find my favourite singers offensive, should I never mention them because you are upset by the mention of them? Life is full of give and take. You have the right to be offended but it doesn't mean you always have the right to not be.

Really should have chosen a word other than right. Oh well.

Btw, I hate myself for posting this as I'm now part of the problem. But it's the second day back and I'm procrastinating.

I don't use 'hell' around certain Christian friends. I moderate my language around my girlfriend's parents. I (generally) don't play death metal or songs featuring excessive swearing when my mother is in the car. I have friends to whom I won't mention other friends, because I know they can't stand them.

These are all super-low-cost changes to make. It puts me at no disadvantage, and it makes the other people happier than if I didn't bother with those changes. That's essentially the 'not being a dick' thing. One of my preferred examples for this is pronouns -- you incur no cost to use the pronouns someone prefers, and you make them happier. So misgendering is literally just you being a dick for the sake of being a dick, even if you think the rationale 'xe' is a little bit ridiculous.

Obviously there are times where offending people is inevitable; you can't always make everyone happy. Even then, you can still have tact in dealing with people and recognise that their experiences are valid, instead of yelling at them about why they shouldn't feel the way they feel.

I think I'm making less and less sense, but in my defence it's 3am and I wanted to go to bed about 5 hours ago. **** you, internet.

 

[GIMH]

I don't use 'hell' around certain Christian friends. I moderate my language around my girlfriend's parents. I (generally) don't play death metal or songs featuring excessive swearing when my mother is in the car. I have friends to whom I won't mention other friends, because I know they can't stand them.

These are all super-low-cost changes to make. It puts me at no disadvantage, and it makes the other people happier than if I didn't bother with those changes. That's essentially the 'not being a dick' thing. One of my preferred examples for this is pronouns -- you incur no cost to use the pronouns someone prefers, and you make them happier. So misgendering is literally just you being a dick for the sake of being a dick, even if you think the rationale 'xe' is a little bit ridiculous.

Obviously there are times where offending people is inevitable; you can't always make everyone happy. Even then, you can still have tact in dealing with people and recognise that their experiences are valid, instead of yelling at them about why they shouldn't feel the way they feel.

I think I'm making less and less sense, but in my defence it's 3am and I wanted to go to bed about 5 hours ago. **** you, internet.

Well sure. I do similar things to many that you have listed. But if I gave a lift home to a colleague of the wife (as I do now and again) and had Oasis on, and they said 'I find Oasis offensive' do you think I should turn it off?

 

[Spark]

Well sure. I do similar things to many that you have listed. But if I gave a lift home to a colleague of the wife (as I do now and again) and had Oasis on, and they said 'I find Oasis offensive' do you think I should turn it off?

Difference here is that you're not just being polite, you're actively suppressing a part of yourself which you regard as important. That definitely goes beyond mere politeness into outright submissiveness IMO.

 

[GIMH]

Difference here is that you're not just being polite, you're actively suppressing a part of yourself which you regard as important. That definitely goes beyond mere politeness into outright submissiveness IMO.

Well I *think* that was my point, if I've interpreted you correctly. That's what I mentioned religion as an example earlier, despite myself having zero interest in it.

 

[Spark]

Well I *think* that was my point, if I've interpreted you correctly. That's what I mentioned religion as an example earlier, despite myself having zero interest in it.

Yeah, fair enough. But at some point you just to realise that your moral systems/worldviews are in conflict to the point that you're either gonna have to deal with it head-on or part ways, I don't think you can really dance around it at that point.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't use 'hell' around certain Christian friends. I moderate my language around my girlfriend's parents. I (generally) don't play death metal or songs featuring excessive swearing when my mother is in the car. I have friends to whom I won't mention other friends, because I know they can't stand them.

These are all super-low-cost changes to make. It puts me at no disadvantage, and it makes the other people happier than if I didn't bother with those changes. That's essentially the 'not being a dick' thing. One of my preferred examples for this is pronouns -- you incur no cost to use the pronouns someone prefers, and you make them happier. So misgendering is literally just you being a dick for the sake of being a dick, even if you think the rationale 'xe' is a little bit ridiculous.

Obviously there are times where offending people is inevitable; you can't always make everyone happy. Even then, you can still have tact in dealing with people and recognise that their experiences are valid, instead of yelling at them about why they shouldn't feel the way they feel.

I think I'm making less and less sense, but in my defence it's 3am and I wanted to go to bed about 5 hours ago. **** you, internet.

See, my policy when dealing with me offending others or others offending me has always been "I was a dick/I didn't know that would offend you and I'm sorry". A sincere apology to me when I'm offended by someone or me apologizing to them when they're on the receiving end of my ignorance works wonders. (Since obviously what offends some people and what doesn't is a difficult thing to figure out) I think by the same token if Gayle had put out a sincere, serious apology saying it was a stupid, douchebag thing for him to do, some of the discussion might have died down. Unfortunately he's tried the old "I was only joking" defence which is a lame non-apology and shifts the debate to the interviewer "not getting it". It's a fine tactic to use on Internet forums to troll people but shifty behaviour in real life. Just man up and say you're ****ing sorry.

 

[Captain_Cook]

I'm going to just going to derail this for just a second.

My god, you are so white. If, by some chance, you are not white, I suppose I applaud your community for so well-and-truly ascribing the perks of white-ness to you. Dat privilege.

White. White-ness. Privilege. And here I was thinking I had judged you too early, I'm calling you out. The sentence written above is worse than anything Chris Gayle said the other night.

Your statement is disgusting regressive racist drivel. Substitute white with any other race and you would be looking at a permanent ban from most internet forums. You have engaged in derogatory comment and stereotyping. Then on the off-chance I'm of another ethnicity you euphemistically call me an Uncle Tom/Coconut/Race traitor.

Liberal values are colour-blind unlike you who wanted to racialise this entire conversation. I'm not offended, just sad that you can blindly type this crap and have utter conviction that you are right.

 

[Spark]

now here is faux outrage for you, folks

I'm not offended

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahaha

 

[Stapel]

I'm going to just going to derail this for just a second.

The difference between an internet forum thread and a train, is that a train will actually stop when it derails.

 

[Spark]

imagine being so horrified at the idea of being ~offended~ by something that you'd go out of your way to say you weren't offended, whilst digging through a post to pick one out line to rant and rave at, seething with rage

 

[Coronis]

Hey can someone post that Sharapova video again and pretend it's an airtight counterargument.

Which video, I'd love to watch?

 

[Captain_Cook]

imagine being so horrified at the idea of being ~offended~ by something that you'd go out of your way to say you weren't offended, whilst digging through a post to pick one out line to rant and rave at, seething with rage

It's all so predictable, Dr Subtext. Disregarding my points for a cheap laugh as confronting them would lead to the most extreme triggering.

 

[sledger]

There were points?

 

[Spark]

It's all so predictable, Dr Subtext. Disregarding my points for a cheap laugh as confronting them would lead to the most extreme triggering.

you sound very upset by all this. what's the matter, can't take people disagreeing with you? where's that vaunted defence of ~free speech~ and ~just take it~?

i mean, i don't know why anyone should take you remotely seriously when you honestly suggest that people should put their jobs and livelihoods to waste if they don't like blatantly inappropriate behaviour—as if it's somehow their fault—and then get furious, FURIOUS when someone suggests that you're white (you heard it here first folks, being called white is worse than being subjected to wildly inappropriate behaviour on live national TV), but you're welcome to try.

jesus, you can think what you like, but at least try to pretend to be honest about it. let me suggest that you actually know ****-all about liberal values, which do not and have never included a moral imperative to be a dickhead just because you can. this sort of crass tedium is why it's become so difficult to be taken seriously by the broader public on legitimate free speech issues, because it's just wildly misplaced priorities when freedom of speech/association/political action was and has always been designed to empower the powerless and the marginalised, not to give people a free pass to make other people feel like ****.

 

[harsh.ag]

Dr Spark conducting a lobotomy here

 

[Spark]

Dr Spark conducting a lobotomy here

dr spark is very bored and really should be doing something more productive

 

[sledger]

you sound very upset by all this. what's the matter, can't take people disagreeing with you? where's that vaunted defence of ~free speech~ and ~just take it~?

i mean, i don't know why anyone should take you remotely seriously when you honestly suggest that people should put their jobs and livelihoods to waste if they don't like blatantly inappropriate behaviour—as if it's somehow their fault—and then get furious, FURIOUS when someone suggests that you're white (you heard it here first folks, being called white is worse than being subjected to wildly inappropriate behaviour on live national TV), but you're welcome to try.

jesus, you can think what you like, but at least try to pretend to be honest about it. let me suggest that you actually know ****-all about liberal values, which do not and have never included a moral imperative to be a dickhead just because you can. this sort of crass tedium is why it's become so difficult to be taken seriously by the broader public on legitimate free speech issues, because it's just wildly misplaced priorities when freedom of speech/association/political action was and has always been designed to empower the powerless and the marginalised, not to give people a free pass to make other people feel like ****.