International cricketers who should retire from a particular format

[Maximas]

Sanga from T20s. Thirimanne and Chandimal from T20s. Thisara Perera from tests. Herath from limited overs stuff. Mendis from all three formats.

Don't agree with much of this tbh

Sanga is a class t20 player and SL's t20 international success if built off him, they need the prize money from the world t20, so I say keep him on till Dhaka 2014.

Both Thirrimanne are seen as leadership candidates, and t20 is somewhere where they can learn to lead in the international arena, but I sought of agree with you on this one.

Thisara has test potential, his bowling in particular has been successful at times in tests (think Pallekele 2012 vs Pak) and his batting is required with the weakness of the SL tail.

Herath should be kept until WC 2015, only because he is so damn good, although I'd like to see Seneneyake slowly take over the reigns over time.

Agree with you about Mendis, makes me vomit every time I see him bowl.

 

[JontyPanesar]

Dhoni should take a big break from International T20s for sure. Retire, perhaps not, but at least let Karthik & co. try their hand at that format for India, if not tests. I don't see why players have to retire. I don't think Clarke should play ODIs, yes, but why should he retire from the format? Just keep him on the backburner, until the team desperately needs him for some reason.

Dhoni isn't even the best wk or batsman India has. Saha is better in both depts. I'd still say DK is a better overseas batsman and about as good of a wk

 

[harsh.ag]

Dhoni isn't even the best wk or batsman India has. Saha is better in both depts. I'd still say DK is a better overseas batsman and about as good of a wk

Given. But we have never had a captain who Indians don't criticize when the team does badly for a while. Dhoni is the first after a long time. That is more valuable than it might seem.

 

[Salamuddin]

Can't see Dhoni captaining India for too much longer in tests or indeed even playing in that format.

AT Most he will lead India to Australia next summer and then call it quits or perhaps even after India's tour to England in July/AUgust.

 

[Jono]

Given. But we have never had a captain who Indians don't criticize when the team does badly for a while. Dhoni is the first after a long time. That is more valuable than it might seem.

Are you saying Dhoni didn't get criticism when India were sucking in 2011-12?

 

[JontyPanesar]

Given. But we have never had a captain who Indians don't criticize when the team does badly for a while. Dhoni is the first after a long time. That is more valuable than it might seem.

dhoni was highly deserving of criticism. For his performance and his captaincy. In every observable way in which captains can be judged, Dhoni has been a miserable failure. Dhoni was far worse than Zak in his performances during 0-8 and losing 2-1 to England at home, but Zak was dropped and Dhoni was allowed to stay on

 

[Jono]

In every observable way in which captains can be judged, Dhoni has been a miserable failure.

You mean over that specific period and not generally right? From 2011-12 I was one of Dhoni's biggest captaincy critics on here and called for him to be dropped from tests, but he definitely has not been a failure for his whole tenure as captain.

 

[JontyPanesar]

You mean over that specific period and not generally right? From 2011-12 I was one of Dhoni's biggest captaincy critics on here and called for him to be dropped from tests, but he definitely has not been a failure for his whole tenure as captain.

Here are the things I judge captains by: Batting order, fields, bowling order. Over a longer timeframe: Selection track record, the improvement and/or decline of players being selected consistently.

Dhoni's unwillingness to move Sehwag down the order back when it made sense to is something I hold against him, but overall batting order has been static.
His stagnant defensive fields drive me up the wall. Don't just blame bowlers for that.
Bowling order generally isn't something that can get too complex
His unwillingness to challenge the status quo and undergo transition sooner was wrong.
His unwillingness to give Ojha or Rohit Sharma a match in Australia was criminal.
Standing by players like Yuvraj, Raina, and Ishant has just been wrong.
Picking Vinay Kumar as a fourth seamer was just flat out dumb.
All of the players Dhoni has inherited from the past regime have been dropped or retired under his captaincy. Guys like Gambhir who initially looked very solid, have fallen apart dramatically under Dhoni's watch. If you're not helping your squad-mates improve, and you pick poorly from your squad, that should reflect poorly on you as a captain.

 

[OverratedSanity]

dhoni was highly deserving of criticism. For his performance and his captaincy. In every observable way in which captains can be judged, Dhoni has been a miserable failure.

You mean like taking us to No. 1 in tests, winning the t20 and odi world cups?

I get what you're saying, sort of. He's a poor captain when it comes to tactics and team selection... And can make some truly brain dead decisions when it comes to field placements and sometimes inexplicably goes on the defensive when it's time to turn the screws ( 2011 Capetown ), but there's a lot more to captaincy than that... He is an inspiration to his teammates in many ways and they very obviously look upto him and trust him. He's an amazing leader, while not necessarily hood captain tactically. And apart from those two whitewashes, you can't argue with the results either

 

[harsh.ag]

Here are the things I judge captains by: Batting order, fields, bowling order. Over a longer timeframe: Selection track record, the improvement and/or decline of players being selected consistently.

Dhoni's unwillingness to move Sehwag down the order back when it made sense to is something I hold against him, but overall batting order has been static.
His stagnant defensive fields drive me up the wall. Don't just blame bowlers for that.
Bowling order generally isn't something that can get too complex
His unwillingness to challenge the status quo and undergo transition sooner was wrong.
His unwillingness to give Ojha or Rohit Sharma a match in Australia was criminal.
Standing by players like Yuvraj, Raina, and Ishant has just been wrong.
Picking Vinay Kumar as a fourth seamer was just flat out dumb.
All of the players Dhoni has inherited from the past regime have been dropped or retired under his captaincy. Guys like Gambhir who initially looked very solid, have fallen apart dramatically under Dhoni's watch. If you're not helping your squad-mates improve, and you pick poorly from your squad, that should reflect poorly on you as a captain.

Being way too critical, and ignoring a lot many things.

 

[Jono]

Here are the things I judge captains by: Batting order, fields, bowling order. Over a longer timeframe: Selection track record, the improvement and/or decline of players being selected consistently.

Dhoni's unwillingness to move Sehwag down the order back when it made sense to is something I hold against him, but overall batting order has been static.
His stagnant defensive fields drive me up the wall. Don't just blame bowlers for that.
Bowling order generally isn't something that can get too complex
His unwillingness to challenge the status quo and undergo transition sooner was wrong.
His unwillingness to give Ojha or Rohit Sharma a match in Australia was criminal.
Standing by players like Yuvraj, Raina, and Ishant has just been wrong.
Picking Vinay Kumar as a fourth seamer was just flat out dumb.
All of the players Dhoni has inherited from the past regime have been dropped or retired under his captaincy. Guys like Gambhir who initially looked very solid, have fallen apart dramatically under Dhoni's watch. If you're not helping your squad-mates improve, and you pick poorly from your squad, that should reflect poorly on you as a captain.

When should Rohit have played? Funnily enough Dhoni and the panel stuck by Kohli when ****s on this forum and everywhere else were calling for him to be dropped. He then was India's best batsman.

I love Rohit, but the only time Rohit could have played would have been in Adelaide if Dravid or Laxman would have been dropped. I don't know any captain that would have dropped two players of that status in the last test of the series. And really after England Dravid was undroppable, so basically Laxman had to be dropped for Rohit.

 

[JontyPanesar]

When should Rohit have played? Funnily enough Dhoni and the panel stuck by Kohli when ****s on this forum and everywhere else were calling for him to be dropped. He then was India's best batsman.

I love Rohit, but the only time Rohit could have played would have been in Adelaide if Dravid or Laxman would have been dropped. I don't know any captain that would have dropped two players of that status in the last test of the series. And really after England Dravid was undroppable, so basically Laxman had to be dropped for Rohit.

Adelaide was precisely when I was thinking it was a no-brainer to pick Rohit. Or how about Rohit/Rahane/Badri in the NZ home series? It was also a no-brainer that going with Yuvraj in the WI home series was a fool's errand but I guess sentiment and emotion rule all else. The WI tour was also filled with selection goof-ups. They put all their eggs in the basket of Raina without even giving Badri a small look (he was in the test squad...). If there's a trend in all of this, it's the overweighting of ODI performances, especially home ODI performances. It's got to the point where I'm hoping Raina is a grade A Indian player as a CSK kickback, and not because they think he's going to play test and odi cricket going forward

 

[Jono]

wtf lol.

He's averaging around 20 this year and his overall has fallen from roughly 57 to 55. Plus he's now 38 and there's hardly anything he can gain in 1 yr. On the flip side, he could end up playing too long and hurting his overall stats even more. He's the last of the true ATGs and don't want him to slip further and let Sangakkara of all people end with clearly the highest average from the last generation.
Sanga 57
Kallis 55.4 ---> ~53/54 if he plays till world cup. I don't think he's good enough anymore. He struggled in the IPL as well after a long time. Plus he took 5 months off from the game this year, which is worst thing to do at this age. I strongly doubt he'll be able to consistently perform again. He's barely played any ODI cricket in the last two years, yet he believes he can go out there and perform in the world cup in another 1 year as an all-rounder. Will end up having one of the worst endings around imo.

I think I was one of the few who advocated Tendulkar to retire all throughout 2011 but he had to totally mess up his stats and legacy.
Ponting due to his stubbornes eked out 2 extra yrs. Time to him to go was 2010 after the Ashes (in Tests). Had one of worst declines around. Meanwhile, Dravid had been struggling since 2007 against all nations except the weaker ones, but luckily had a great series in England which salvaged his legacy. But still he embarrased himself in Aus with so many bowled dismissals and finished with a low avg of 51 after at one point being right up there with Ponting with avg of close to 60.
Hence it would be dumb of Kallis to not learn anything from his contemporaries' mistakes.

How sad would this look-

Ponting and Dravid 51
Lara 52
Tendulkar and Kallis 53
Daylight
Sangakkara 56 (He would end up being held in much higher regard in future than he is now. )

Yes, I don't see Sangakkara as an ATG and would love for him to play till 41 and finish with <50 avg. But he's super clever guy and I see him retiring after the next world cup with his avg and stats intact.

Say whatever cricketers' are mostly judged by their averages, especially in the subsequent eras. So hence why my emphasis is on that.

tennis.com - On Gods and Humans

Its a tennis article about Tendulkar and Federer, which is an odd thing to post here. But considering I read it after reading your post, it made me think of what you said and why your thinking is quite warped.

Cricket is about enjoyment, not stats and legacy.

 

[GIMH]

It actually links in with what I was asking in the thread I started. I don't know if Tendulkar's stats would have been better if he had retired in 06, but his achievements following that make everything worthwhile regardless.

I mean looking closer to home for me, Simon Jones is a great what if after never playing after the 05 Ashes. He might have gone on to destroy his stats had he not got injured, but we'd all agree that preserving his average was not a good byproduct of never playing international cricket again.

Freddie could never have come back from his injuries in 06 and would never have had his decline of 08/09. But the memories he left us with Lord's 09 and the Ponting run out are what I remember, not his deteriorating averages, which weren't great anyway.

Or Paul Collingwood. He was in very poor form in the 10-11 Ashes but got to be part of what was a great achievement for the England team? A few extra average points wouldn't make up for that.

Feels dirty, but I'm with Jono and that's just using some players I like rather than bona fide ATGs.

 

[DaveS]

Would be smart of Kallis to announce his retirement this summer or else I fear him doing what Tendulkar, Dravid and Ponting did.

There hasn't really been a hint of a dip though, he is still a run machine. It's hard to know his ambition of what records to set in his career.

 

[centurymaker]

Sorry cm. Like your views mostly, but this is not your best work. Players like Kallis hardly make retirement decisions based on how much their batting average will fall. If they thought like that, they would never have become as great as they are. And we don't judge batsmen solely on averages. Quite the opposite on many occasions. Sutcliffe and Barrington are rated lower than many others like Hammond, Hobbs, Hutton, Grace, and even Compton, Dexter, Pietersen and Gower by some.

Headley is not universally considered better than Lara, Sobers or Viv, or for that matter the 3Ws. Within the 3 Ws, Worrell is rated the highest by many (Benaud and my former coach included). Kanhai is considered better than so many batsmen who have a better record.

There are many examples. And as for the people who just follow averages, no one gives much of a damn about what they think, and certainly the players should give them as scant a regard as possible.

No problem.

Him retiring with his average held high (unlike the rest of the contingent) along with around 36-40 tons will surely make him look a true All-Time Great, when he is probably a step below that.

Future generations will consider him to be a criminally underrated crickter and speak of him as being at least as good as an unattractive slow scoring Dravid. And tbf 5 point average gap is huge- 56 sanga v 51 dravid.

But yeah hopefully what you have said proves to be true in future as well.

 

[centurymaker]

tennis.com - On Gods and Humans

Its a tennis article about Tendulkar and Federer, which is an odd thing to post here. But considering I read it after reading your post, it made me think of what you said and why your thinking is quite warped.

Cricket is about enjoyment, not stats and legacy.

Not it is not my thinking. I just suspect next generations to value stats increasingly more.

 

[hendrix]

Averages hardly matter as much as you've made out. Viv averaged lower than Gavaskar and Miandad

I rate Gavaskar higher than Viv but I'm probably alone there.

 

[JontyPanesar]

You mean like taking us to No. 1 in tests, winning the t20 and odi world cups?

I get what you're saying, sort of. He's a poor captain when it comes to tactics and team selection... And can make some truly brain dead decisions when it comes to field placements and sometimes inexplicably goes on the defensive when it's time to turn the screws ( 2011 Capetown ), but there's a lot more to captaincy than that... He is an inspiration to his teammates in many ways and they very obviously look upto him and trust him. He's an amazing leader, while not necessarily hood captain tactically. And apart from those two whitewashes, you can't argue with the results either

Bingo. He let that game drift too and it took him ages to realize that maybe a second spinner might be useful on that pitch to break up the partnership (Tendlya to the rescue!)

I'm willing to make room for intangibles, but this hasn't been some dominant side. He even lost the home series to England. Even with intangibles though, it's impossible to gauge those from the outside, so the best gauge is results aside from the observable inputs.

I think it's also important to note that I don't just judge captains by tactics. Their ability to make good selections into the XI from the squad (which Dhoni does have the power to do for the most part) and their ability to make their teammates better also has to factor into the equation. While Punter and even Tugga weren't amazing in terms of tactics, I think they also had a good eye for selection and helped their teammates improved their abilities. Can't speak as much to Tugga's captaincy as I can to Punter's though. Even the younger players Dhoni pretty much inherited have declined under his captaincy. Either help them improve or find new players.

 

[Dan]

Not it is not my thinking. I just suspect next generations to value stats increasingly more.

And future generations valuing statistics more should be a legitimate part of a player's decision to retire? I don't think Sangakkara gives two ****s whether he averages 56 or 51, as long as Sri Lanka is winning games.

Kallis averaging 45 over the next 2 years, which would drop his average down however much, is still better for South Africa than bringing in a specialist batsman who averages 40.

Retiring to protect stats is the most idiotic thing I've ever seen posted - you retire when you've had enough of the game, don't feel like you're good enough or want to pursue other things. While I don't deny that some players may care about their statistics, they're hardly going to retire before they want to just to keep their averages up.