Inness should have been picked over Bracken

[iamdavid]

Well said Top Cat , I have been arguing with Richard for about 6 months on the cricinfo forums about the exact topic you just mentioned , he never seems to give up though , regardless of what evidence or opinion proves him wrong.

There are actually times when McGrath quite visibly moves the ball through the air as well (the recent Bangladesh series , the series in South Africa last year) , however as you say his movement is generally quite subtle & off the wicket rather than through the air.:rolleyes:

 

[Rik]

Yes, by far and away the 2 best seamers in World Cricket.

If Inness is such a great bowler, how come he's never played for his country?

The same reason Saggers hasn't till now:

The Selectors

 

[Craig]

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY FEAR HIM? It's ain't his devastating pace. I notice that the guys who actually face him rate him pretty highly. I also notice that none of them have said they only get themselves out against him. Wonder why?



Aww, come on man; do you honestly think someone who merely bowls accurately and does nothing else would take 400+ wickets at a strike-rate amongst the best in the game? Give me a break..........seriously, you want to bash someone, bash someone who at least one batsman in the world rates lowly. With McGrath or Pollock, you're talking about guys who are rated highly by historians, commentators and their peers alike. Denying their obvious talent with the ball puts you in as exclusive a club as Gary Larsen's fabled DLDWWS (Didn't Like Dances With Wolves Society).

Brian Lara is one of the greatest batsmen of our generation; ask yourself why Glenn McGrath leapfrogs everyone else, in terms of Lara's opponents, in having the ability to get him out. Just bowling accurately? Lara punishes guys who don't do something with ball. Getting himself out? A guy who scores as heavily and frequently as he does in all sorts of pressure situations doesn't strike me as being short of patience. So what else is there? It couldn't be that Glenn McGrath has the ability to get good (and great) batsmen out with the good deliveries he bowls now, could it? Perish the thought.........

Here's an idea; why don't you go play for a club and just bowl accurately without moving the ball and we'll see how far you get, let alone playing for your county, let alone playing for your country and certainly letting alone being rated amonst the best in the game and taking 400+ wickets Test in an era where conditions have favoured batsmen as a whole. I'm not a betting man but I'd wager that you would not get far.



Lets test that theory in some statistics, eh?

Glenn McGrath's record in India:

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

Glenn McGrath's record in NZ:

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

Glenn McGrath's record in Pakistan

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

Glenn McGrath's record in the WI

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

Glenn McGrath's record in Adelaide

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

Glenn McGrath's record in Bellerive

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/...=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&csearch=&submit=1

You starting to see a pattern yet? I don't know what you've got against McGrath but criticising his ability to move the ball around and get batsmen out is ultimately futile because you've got his record and testimonials from guys who've played against him against you.

The truth is, McGrath does move the ball around quite a bit but it's subtle and not always picked up on the visuals you see on TV. His movement isn't exaggerated but that's because he's not trying for the hooping outswinger or spitting leg-cutter every ball. But having watched him since Test number 1 (and in the nets) it's pretty obvious he doesn't get wickets by merely hitting a line-and-length and doing nothing else. You indirectly diss the skill required in facing him and therefore the overall skill level of batsmen worldwide if you believe that to be the case. And considering all the signs (higher run-rates, higher scores, etc.) point to increased fortunes for batting worldwide, a conclusion like you're making flies in the face of all available evidence.

Alternatively, give me ONE example of a bowler who was successful in Test history by only bowling accurately.

The next time somebody accusses me of liking at stats or using stats to base my judgement's on, I will scream.

 

[Rik]

The next time somebody accusses me of liking at stats or using stats to base my judgement's on, I will scream.

Errrm...Craig...they are talking about Richard...not you...

 

[marc71178]

The same reason Saggers hasn't till now:

The Selectors

As goos as people say he is, no-one has gone so far as to call Saggers the best bowler in England though.

 

[Richard]

Here's an idea; why don't you go play for a club and just bowl accurately without moving the ball and we'll see how far you get, let alone playing for your county, let alone playing for your country and certainly letting alone being rated amonst the best in the game and taking 400+ wickets Test in an era where conditions have favoured batsmen as a whole. I'm not a betting man but I'd wager that you would not get far.

Unfortunately, as I have had to point-out to a great many people, accuracy isn't a "basic", as so many supposedly knowldgable people describe it as. If accuracy was basic anyone in The World could be a Test-class bowler if they just learnt to move the ball.
I do play for a club, far more regularly than I think I should, because I am not very accurate and I often go for more runs than at least 2 other bowlers. I do swing the ball a lot, however, and I have 2 seven-fors to my name, one in a 20-over game where I could bowl 4 overs.

Lets test that theory in some statistics, eh?

I will always argue that you cannot judge a bowler on statistics first. You have to watch the wickets he has taken, and analyse whether these were the result of good bowling or poor batting. And you can't try to see something a bowler has done well in every dismissal.

I notice that the guys who actually face him rate him pretty highly.

So what if guts who have faced him rate him highly? It is equally easy to analyse from the armchair as from the opposite end. You don't have to have playing ability to have analytical ability. It is not difficult to say "that was a poor shot" if you didn't play it. It's rather more difficult to keep saying it if you keep playing bad shots.

I also notice that none of them have said they only get themselves out against him. Wonder why?

Yeah? I don't. You don't just go out and say "He's not as good as you're saying he is - it was all my fault, I keep getting myself out to him". How rude would that be? To publicly put down someone who the chances are you have met and you are certainly involved in day-to-day.

The truth is, McGrath does move the ball around quite a bit but it's subtle and not always picked up on the visuals you see on TV. His movement isn't exaggerated but that's because he's not trying for the hooping outswinger or spitting leg-cutter every ball. But having watched him since Test number 1 (and in the nets) it's pretty obvious he doesn't get wickets by merely hitting a line-and-length and doing nothing else. You indirectly diss the skill required in facing him and therefore the overall skill level of batsmen worldwide if you believe that to be the case. And considering all the signs (higher run-rates, higher scores, etc.) point to increased fortunes for batting worldwide, a conclusion like you're making flies in the face of all available evidence.

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to watch McGrath game-by-game in the last year. This winter, I will again be able to (provided he ever gets fit again). I will now be able to ascertain for myself whether he actually moves the ball with any methods other than seam.
Has anyone actually said "McGrath is good because of his off-cutters\leg-cutters"? No, the fact is that when people praise McGrath there is rarely anything mentioned but one word. Accuracy. And as you seem to realise, accuracy is not a weapon, because very few bowlers have achieved success by bowling accurately alone.
As I have not had the facility to watch McGrath I have had to go on others' accounts.
You admit that McGrath doesn't swing the ball very often; he doesn't bowl off- and leg-cutters at all to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong). His sole weapon, then, is seam off the pitch. Unless you can suggest to me another method of moving the ball?

 

[iamdavid]

; he doesn't bowl off- and leg-cutters at all to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong)

Yes you are quite wrong , he has bowled an offcutter all his carear , (remember Mike Atherton lbw at Lords in 2001) thats basically the reason he has got Lara out so often , he comes around the wicket & cramps him up before cutting it away towards the slips , occasionally bowls a leg cutter but not as well.

 

[Top_Cat]

The next time somebody accusses me of liking at stats or using stats to base my judgement's on, I will scream.

I didn't base my WHOLE argument on Glenn stats. BIG difference.

will always argue that you cannot judge a bowler on statistics first.

That's right and I didn't. Glenn's stats are the last thing I mentioned.

So what if guts who have faced him rate him highly? It is equally easy to analyse from the armchair as from the opposite end.

I disagree. In my mind, you cannot possibly gain a full understanding of how tough or easy a bowler is to face unless you're out there playing against him. Again, you can't pick everything a bowler is doing watching it on TV broadcast from a camera which is 100m away from the action. The subtle movements of the ball aren't picked up visually, regardless of the resolution of the camera. Glenn's movement is subtle most of the time with the odd exaggerated delivery.

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to watch McGrath game-by-game in the last year. This winter, I will again be able to (provided he ever gets fit again). I will now be able to ascertain for myself whether he actually moves the ball with any methods other than seam.

I doubt it. Like I said, most of the movement he gets in his usual deliveries doesn't get picked up by the camera.

Has anyone actually said "McGrath is good because of his off-cutters\leg-cutters"? No, the fact is that when people praise McGrath there is rarely anything mentioned but one word. Accuracy.

That's right but reporters on McGrath miss the point in his bowling. It's not just the accuracy but the subtle movement which they wouldn't see. Batsmen who've faced him talk about his movement both ways off the pitch whereas reporters seem to assume that all he does is bowl straight. They said the same about Brian Statham yet batsmen who've faced him paint an entirely different view. The point is, no-one who hasn't faced can understand completely how difficult he is to face regardless of how many replays from different angles are seen.

You admit that McGrath doesn't swing the ball very often

Yeah but for some unknown reason, he is swinging the ball these days. Ball makers must insert 'Swing (tm)' into the ball as it's made or something because it seems to make no sense that Glenn McGrath swings the ball these days.

he doesn't bowl off- and leg-cutters at all to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong).

Duly corrected. He does cut the ball and in fact his off-cutter has always been his most lethal weapon. He just uses it less often these days. I never understood why.

Same with Gillespie. He used to have a spitting off-cutter which, in the season befre he played his first Test, clean bowled batsmen shouldering arms regularly. Don't know why he stopped bowling that one.

I digress........Glenn McGrath most certainly doesn't rely primarily on seam. He's just patient enough to use the cutting and swinging deliveries less often than other bowlers might.

 

[age_master]

you must also remember that you dont have to move the ball that far to get an edge, only a few centimetres, if you move it too far they will miss it, McGrath knows where to bowl and how far to move it, he has more control over his bowling than anyone else in test cricket history. he aims, and gets it there, aparently 75% of his balls are in a tiny square on the pitch, about 15cm by 15cm - well that what ive heard.

 

[marc71178]

I didn't base my WHOLE argument on Glenn stats. BIG difference.

But saying that, those stats did show he can do it anywhere, and you didn't even mention his stats in England!

 

[Eclipse]

The other major thing McGrath has going for him that no one seem's to have mentioned is his bounce.

He is a tall man and unlike Brett Lee for example McGrath's good length balls really get up high .

You dont see that many players pulling or hooking McGrath easly.

 

[iamdavid]

You dont see that many players pulling or hooking McGrath easly.

Actually Id say quite the opposite , I have seen Micheal Vaughan & Sachin Tendulkar use his height to their advantage & pull him from a good length , what you dont see very often is guys confidently driving him from a length like they can to Lee.

 

[Andre]

Anyway, back to topic. Steve Waugh was asked in today's paper (Sydney Morning Herald) about the Inness/Bracken issue, and declared Inness was the most underrated cricketer in Australia.

To his credit, he also defended the selecton of Bracken. Always the diplomat

 

[roofromoz]

If Inness is such a great bowler, how come he's never played for his country?

Probably because he doesn't play for NSW or Queensland.

I have got to admit that I would never had thought of Matthew Inness as a replacement in the Australian bowling stocks, but now that it has been mentioned, I think that it would not exactly be a gamble by the selectors to play him.

He has been one of the quiet achievers in the domestic scene over the past few years, and has got a bagful of wickets for the Vics.

Let's just hope that he doesn't become a Jamie Siddons... one of the best players to NEVER represent Australia.

 

[Richard]

OK, T_C (or Corey or whatever you prefer to be called):
Thank you for correcting me about McGrath's ability to bowl off-cutters, it's something I will watch-out for.
However, I really wish you would stop going-on about this "subtle, not always noticeable by camera" stuff. And I wish you wouldn't keep talking about "movement" without mentioning how he moves it.
If you look closely enough, you will always notice movement, especially off the pitch. It's not a question of the camera not noticing it, it's a case of viewers not noticing it.
If there really is movement that a camera can't notice, it's not likely to cause much trouble to batsmen. Yes, a huge deviation will never cause trouble (unless it's straight) as it'll just beat the edge, but something which moves a couple of micrometres isn't going to cause trouble, either.
If you move the ball, you have to move it with a certain technique. Cricket balls are (except when they go out of shape) round things and they hence bounce evenly, sideways and up-and-down, on even, dry ground, anyway.
If there are cracks or live grass on the pitch, just landing it on the seam will make it move sideways, up-and-down or both. If neither, however, you need to do something else - in the case of spinners, turn it, in the case of seamers, cut it. If McGrath can do this and I haven't noticed it, I apologise.
Alternatively, you can swing it, through the air - whether conventional or reverse.
However, the fact remains that most wickets McGrath has taken recently have been, by accounts I have read, poor strokes. Even if he's capable of moving the ball in any conditions, that doesn't appear to have been the reason for most of his wickets recently.

 

[age_master]

if mcgrath is such a crap bowler why has he, on his list of most dismissed batsmen, got so many good batsmen out so many times, the likes of Tendulkar and Lara he has got out quite a few times...

 

[Richard]

if mcgrath is such a crap bowler why has he, on his list of most dismissed batsmen, got so many good batsmen out so many times, the likes of Tendulkar and Lara he has got out quite a few times...

I never said McGrath was a crap bowler - on a seaming or uneven pitch he is about as good as it's possible to be.
However, the principle reason he has got Lara out so many times is because Lara has played many poor strokes to him. FACT. I not long ago saw some sort of celestial videotape showing Lara's dismissals to McGrath and there were two what I would regard as decent deliveries in there.
This is not a criticism of McGrath's ability, just a statement of fact.
As for Tendulkar, I can't comment as I've never seen a videotape of McGrath-v-Tendulkar, but I can say for certain that he twice got out driving-on-the-up at him in India last series, and ducked into a no-rise short-ball at Adelaide the previous series to that.

 

[Craig]

The other major thing McGrath has going for him that no one seem's to have mentioned is his bounce.

He is a tall man and unlike Brett Lee for example McGrath's good length balls really get up high .

You dont see that many players pulling or hooking McGrath easly.

Simple, he has a good action allowing him to get it, Harmison can do this as well.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

However, the principle reason he has got Lara out so many times is because Lara has played many poor strokes to him. FACT. I not long ago saw some sort of celestial videotape showing Lara's dismissals to McGrath and there were two what I would regard as decent deliveries in there.

While McGrath might not always have gotten Lara with genuine wicket-taking deliveries, he has bowled several to him throughout his career.

McGrath is an all-time great bowler - he has 430 Test wickets... in 95 matches! He's certainly one of the last people I expected someone to say is over-rated. Who next? Warne?

 

[Richard]

While McGrath might not always have gotten Lara with genuine wicket-taking deliveries, he has bowled several to him throughout his career.

McGrath is an all-time great bowler - he has 430 Test wickets... in 95 matches! He's certainly one of the last people I expected someone to say is over-rated. Who next? Warne?

No, Warne is a genius who has contributed more to the game of cricket than he'll ever know.
Just a shame he smokes...