Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[kyear2]

@Randomfan let's forget about Imran for a second.

Regarding Ambrose: Would you agree that for him to have 90 percent of his wickets in Aus, Eng and home, and outside that only 36 wickets in 12 tests, is a legitimate issue with his record?

Forgetting about Ambrose for a bit.

And this is for you and @DrWolverine

Would you agree that averaging 26 away from home with a s/r of 60 is a legitimate issue with his record?

 

[kyear2]

At home Imran's SR is 47, far far better than Ambrose at home.

Dude that was not the question.

Imran and Javed have the sketchiest home records in cricket. He averaged 16 at home for a decade and and not a soul called him the best of the era, far less of all time.

What was his strike rate away from home and how did it compare to Ambrose's, which you said was "high"

 

[kyear2]

You prefer others over Lillee for the same reason.

Did you even read the last part of the sentence.

And the point that everyone here is missing is that Australia was literally the toughest opponent in the world at that time.

He was playing the best opposition.

South Africa was recently readmitted, and we penalizing Imran for not playing them as well?

Are we penalizing Bumrah for not playing WI, SL and NZ as much, Pakistan?

If you're playing the best teams, what's the problem?

And let's not forget, he wasn't skipping tours, he was injured or recovering from surgery.

This argument is sincerely ridiculous. SC doesn't have all the flat pitches and didn't have the best teams.

 

[kyear2]

with a guy like Murali, I don't think it's needed tbh

And if he gets injured?

I'm just saying I've never seen a team go into any match with 4 bowlers and it not be a problem. At least a viable part timer.

 

[kyear2]

As expected, you are not addressing any of the issues related to Ambrose.

Ambrose has 90 percent of his wickets in the friendly conditions of Aus, Eng and home, and in the small samples outside of that he accomplished little.

Please recognize this weakness and stop deflecting to Imran this Imran that.

What weakness, he was saying the best teams in the world.

I've asked multiple times.

Where did Imran outperform Ambrose?

 

[kyear2]

Lillee gets penalised because he didn’t play much outside Aus, Eng & NZ. Then it should be fair that Ambrose should also be penalised for the same.

What was Lillee's record in those countries compared to Ambrose?

 

[kyear2]

Yah, for example 30 years later some one may argue that Bumrah should be docked lots of points due to not playing in Pakistan while comapring to some one else who played in Pakistan. I don't think he will ever play in Pakistan. Focus should't be where he did not play. Focus should be to see where he played a lot alongside other top bowlers and how he compares where sample size is a large one for many top bowlers. If he stands out in that large sample size then he stands out and him not playing in Pakistan is a non-issue.

@subshakerz

 

[Johan]

Ok, after a lot of reconsideration....Ambrose.

 

[kyear2]

Great that you agree.

As for Imran away, I have already made my points and I never go on raw average because that is committing the same issue that led us to overrate Ambrose in the first place.

I think that it's Imran that overrated to be honest.

He has a skewed home record that greatly influenced by umpiring and ball tampering.

A average of 19 at home with a s/r of 47 compared to an away average of 26 and a s/r of 60.

Considering the unreliability of his home record, looking at the away one tells quite the story of a bowler that's greatly over rated when separated from his advantages at home.

And it's strange that average and s/r are what we use for everyone as a standard for brilliance, but now it's not good enough because it doesn't prove your point.

Ambrose was actually brilliant vs the best team of his time and at the worst efficient everywhere he played.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Great that you agree.

As for Imran away, I have already made my points and I never go on raw average because that is committing the same issue that led us to overrate Ambrose in the first place.

Those aren't just raw averages those are his exact averages and strike rates. Strike rate is something I know you also a value. Those are the away stats in ICC sanctioned test matches for one Imran born Nov 25th 1952.

And BTW, how is Ambrose overrated? He's arguably top 5 along with the likes of Wasim, Imran, Donald, ans Dennis. Nobody here considers him the goat fast bowler. You just want him below players you favor and you'll come up with any convoluted arguments as a result. Arguments you've contradicted in other debates.

 

[Van_Sri]

Lillee and Marshall are ATGs as is Ambrose.

Except in Australia Walsh was great too

 

[akilana]

Why are his wickets per match so low in SA+. Pakistan?

Because of Kallis.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I think that it's Imran that overrated to be honest.

He has a skewed home record that greatly influenced by umpiring and ball tampering.

A average of 19 at home with a s/r of 47 compared to an away average of 26 and a s/r of 60.

Considering the unreliability of his home record, looking at the away one tells quite the story of a bowler that's greatly over rated when separated from his advantages at home.

And it's strange that average and s/r are what we use for everyone as a standard for brilliance, but now it's not good enough because it doesn't prove your point.

Ambrose was actually brilliant vs the best team of his time and at the worst efficient everywhere he played.

So to be fair to Subz, I excluded Imran's stats in India and Australia the places he did "worse" and included places he did the best away: NZ, WI and Eng. Here is his output below:

24 mts 112 wkts ave 25.15 and sr 57. And those are the three places Imran did the best in, which by coincidence happen to be more conducive to pace. Great wpm, good average and OK sr.

Ambroses record in his 3 worse places:

12 mts 36 wkts ave 23 sr 58. And those are the 3 places he played outside of England and Australia. Poor wpm but excellent average and ok sr. Wpm come on let's be real, he had to compete with Walsh, Bishop, Marshall. Nevertheless wpm is poor.

Should I even bother posting Ambrose's best 3 away locations compared to Imrans best? The picture is clear. Imran was below atg standard away, where as Ambrose was not. Averaging 26 and sr of 60 away is simply not good enough.

 

[Van_Sri]

South Asia XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Younis Khan 5) Sachin Tendulkar 6) Kumar Sangakkara 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah vs West Indies XI : 1) Chris Gayle 2) Gordon Greenidge 3) Viv Richards 4) Brian Lara 5) Clive Lloyd 6) Gary Sobers 7) Jeff Dujon 8) Malcolm Marshall 9) Michael Holding 10) Joel Garner 11) Curtly Ambrose - 5 Test Match Series Who Will Win ? (18 Players Squad plays 5 Test Series in South Asia and West Indies) Name the Other 7 Players in the Sqaud for both the Teams who can replace this 11 if required in the middle of the Series ?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

South Asia XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Younis Khan 5) Sachin Tendulkar 6) Kumar Sangakkara 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah vs West Indies XI : 1) Chris Gayle 2) Gordon Greenidge 3) Viv Richards 4) Brian Lara 5) Clive Lloyd 6) Gary Sobers 7) Jeff Dujon 8) Malcolm Marshall 9) Michael Holding 10) Joel Garner 11) Curtly Ambrose - 5 Test Match Series Who Will Win ? (18 Players Squad plays 5 Test Series in South Asia and West Indies) Name the Other 7 Players in the Sqaud for both the Teams who can replace this 11 if required in the middle of the Series ?

To go up against an Asian team, you have to include Lloyd, Kallicharan, Gibbs and Walsh in the WI squad.

 

[pardus]

I always felt Ambrose was jinxed against India (a bit like Lara).
In the 1989 home series, pitches were extremely fast bowler friendly and Indian batting performance in that series wasn't particularly great. There was no logical reason why Ambrose couldn't have performed well in that series.
While Bishop/Marshall/Walsh shared the spoils, Ambrose just couldn't get into the party.
I remember Bishop was vey very quick back then. One of his thunderbolts breaking the forearm of Indian opener Kris Srikkanth in the last ODI match.

 

[kyear2]

That's not even the argument we are arguing. Ambrose simply has an imbalanced record and was below standard outside WI, Eng and Aus.

So basically none?

The argument is who is better Ambrose of Imran, but you don't think it's applicable to state where Imran performed better than Ambrose?

 

[Van_Sri]

To go up against an Asian team, you have to include Lloyd, Kallicharan, Gibbs and Walsh in the WI squad.

Lloyd already in the playing 11, Gibbs and Walsh will be there percent. Kallicharan had a good record in India so he can be included in the playing 11.

 

[Coronis]

imo Sanga is a huge waste at #6 in an XI

 

[subshakerz]

So basically none?

The argument is who is better Ambrose of Imran, but you don't think it's applicable to state where Imran performed better than Ambrose?

No the argument of Ambrose having 90 percent of wickets in three countries and 36 wickets in 12 tests outside. Which you haven't even touched but have made every effort to dodge.