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Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

Imran or Ambrose (Test)?


  • Total voters
    54

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
if Imran didn't have to focus on excelling in another discipline as well, he could have even more perfected his bowling in the nets and would have been a better bowler than Ambrose by a slight margin.
For Imran in particular that's definitely one can argue. He gave a sizeable mindshare to his batting and captaincy. That he still achieved those bowling stats is mind boggling. His peak was still the best ever for post WWI bowlers (going by peak ICC rating points). He wasn't as single mindedly focused on his bowling and bowling stats as, say, Hadlee was. If Imran too had such obsessive focus, I can totally see him achieving bowling record that would put him at par with the top ~3 pace bowlers ever.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
Imran at his peak (that is about 35+ test matches), averaged sub 18. 1982 took 62 wickets at 13.3 as well. That is a proper peak I suppose.
I concede that the peak you mention is a 'proper peak' that is difficult to match by all but a few ATGs.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Is there any evidence he wasn't fit for the two tests he played?
"his performance in taking one wicket in the two Test matches he played - he missed the third match with injury - urged Fazeer Mohammed, writing in Wisden , to describe Ambrose as "a shadow of his former self". Any danger that Ambrose might have retired after that series was thwarted when Brian Lara was appointed Caribbean captain and immediately spoke to Ambrose and Walsh to ask them to continue on the team." He certainly didn't pick up the injury in the test he didn't play. Also, the fact that this was his worst series ever where even Mervyn Dillon did better is enough to convince me he was no where near 100%.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Can't entirely agree. It depends how you define a 'peak'. I posted a piece about Ambrose at his best and could do something similar with a number of great quicks. I'll concede Marshall was in a class of his own but others have matched Imran when at the top of their game.

Imran's peak is, at least statistically, unmatched by any bowler in any era, averaging around 14/15. Also had the highest ICC rating by any bowler in the last century, I believe.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
McGrath didn't really deviate in quality at all during his career, outside of maybe the first few years that I didn't see I guess. He was still just as good in 2007 as he was in 1999.
Yeah but basically Ambrose from 90-94 is better than McGrath at any point in his career. Overall, McGrath takes it though.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
"his performance in taking one wicket in the two Test matches he played - he missed the third match with injury - urged Fazeer Mohammed, writing in Wisden , to describe Ambrose as "a shadow of his former self". Any danger that Ambrose might have retired after that series was thwarted when Brian Lara was appointed Caribbean captain and immediately spoke to Ambrose and Walsh to ask them to continue on the team." He certainly didn't pick up the injury in the test he didn't play. Also, the fact that this was his worst series ever where even Mervyn Dillon did better is enough to convince me he was no where near 100%.
I watched that series live and read the match reports, nothing recalled about Ambrose playing through injury. And Fazeers criticism of him wouldnt make sense either if that were the case. He simply had a bad series on largely batting friendly wickets.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I watched that series live and read the match reports, nothing recalled about Ambrose playing through injury. And Fazeers criticism of him wouldnt make sense either if that were the case. He simply had a bad series on largely batting friendly wickets.
Yeah but to the extent of 1 for 139 over 2 tests. This isn't the first time Curtly has supposedly played on batting pitches. Come on. Clearly he wasn't himself....
 
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Coronis

International Coach
Yeah but to the extent of 1 for 139 over 2 tests. This isn't the first time Curtly has supposedly played on batting pitches. Come on. Clearly he wasn't himself....
Lots of great bowlers have had **** periods over a match or two, doesn’t mean he was injured. For all we know he injured himself in the nets before the third test. Curtly talks to no man. (at least during his career)
 

Slifer

International Captain
Lots of great bowlers have had **** periods over a match or two, doesn’t mean he was injured. For all we know he injured himself in the nets before the third test. Curtly talks to no man. (at least during his career)
The point is, you can't use two test matches to make an overarching point about a man's entire career, especially when the same person played an earlier series in the exact same location and cleaned up.

Also, the initial point was that somehow Ambrose was less effective on unhelpful wickets than Imran. That simply isn't true, Ambrose averaged 19 odd and struck at 50 at Bourda and the ARG (over 18 tests) two of the flattest wickets in cricket.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
The point is, you can't use two test matches to make an overarching point about a man's entire career, especially when the same person played an earlier series in the exact same location and cleaned up.

Also, the initial point was that somehow Ambrose was less effective on unhelpful wickets than Imran. That simply isn't true, Ambrose averaged 19 odd and struck at 50 at Bourda and the ARG (over 18 tests) two of the flattest wickets in cricket.
Yet when posters try and claim that Ambrose succeeded in the subcontinent, they point to basically one series in Pakistan, which actually had more sporting wickets (Imran's request before the series, if I recall) as an exception and Wasim, Waqar, Bishop all also enjoying great returns and only one innings even crossing 300 the entire series. To say that series is representative of how Ambrose would do overall in the subcontinent, especially India where he never played, is misleading.

They completely ignore the other series in 1997, on typical flatter wickets, which having watched it, I recall Ambrose basically just bowling in the corridor without much variation, and being smacked by Inzi anytime he tried anything short, while Walsh at the other end was bowling cutters at an angle and actually challenging the batsmen and Akram was getting his reverse on.

On unhelpful wickets, once Ambrose lost his pace from mid-90s onwards, he wasn't nearly as much as a threat as suggested. And no, comparing West Indies 90s pitches in terms of flatness to 90s Pakistan ones isnt right either.

Stats are helpful but also actually watching the bowler in action and judging how they would do based on how they normally bowl is important too. To be fair, I dont think Ambrose would do as badly as 1-139 over an extended run in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, but likely end up averaging around 27/28 if given a few more series. Of course, its speculation, but then his sample size is too small to make a clear case.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I think the 6 tests he did play in Asia are a decent enough sample size and of course he did pretty well averaging 22. ...?
Ok can leave it at that. Actually feel bad for nitpicking a bowler as great to watch as Ambrose. He was one reason the 90s were the best decade to watch cricket.
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
And you're missing my point. If you're good enough to average 19 in Pakistan you should killing it in places like England.
So no, averaging 19 in Pakistan wasn't that phenomenal an achievement.

And again, not saying that he was a bum, but let's keep it in perspective.

There are reasons some may do better or be expected to do better at home. Murali, Indian spinners just to give a couple examples, but don't say that Pakistan was harder for pacers to excel, then perform considerably better there than anywhere else, and by some margin and everyone acts like it's normal.
Because the skill required to do well in Pakistan is significantly different from the skill required to do well in England.
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
At their respective peaks, Imran (81/82) was, perhaps, a tad faster than Ambrose (91/92), Lillee (75/76) and Garner (82/83) and was closer to the Holding (76/77), Marshall (84/85) and Roberts (75/76) league; this is purely in terms of pace.
Would have expected Lillee to be faster
 

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