I has been drinking...

[Richard]

It does, but I'm quite happy to have the argument\discussion with people as to why\why not.

And as I say - it does annoy me when people refuse to have said argument\discussion then continue to say what they have been saying as if it couldn't be wrong.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Jesus Christ, English is your first language, isn't it? That being so you really should get a stronger grasp of the basics. You said:



I'm saying that some amateus who were selected didn't deserve to be in the side; you're saying if they were so poor they'd not have gotten in the side, which is the contrary position. Some amateurs who were selected were so poor that they shouldn't have been selected. I can't be clearer than that.



You do know that when someone stops replying to your posts it doesn't mean you've "proved them conclusively wrong" or that you've "won", right? That was "in jest"? This isn't a pissing contest in an infants' playground. In my experience of your style of "arguing" people (myself included) generally just give up because of your pig-headedness.

If, on the other hand, you have an actual counter argument I'd like to read it, even if you just post a link to one of the 3 or 4 other times you've made it.

Hear hear!

Sometimes a viewpoint can be so baseless and ridiculous that there's no point arguing against it. If the person in question honestly believes what they're saying is true, there's no point continuing really. Nobody has 'won' the argument, all that's happened is a potential suicide has been avoided

 

[The Sean]

I am going to throw this into the debate:

In my ratings of allrounders, I put in bonus points for the number of times an allrounder has achieved the double of 100 runs/5 wickets in a match. Keep in mind that this does not mean a century/fiver in the same match, which is a great feat, but simply 100 runs across two innings and five wickets across two innings.

Now, what is interesting is that Sobers has done this 7 times, as has Botham.

Miller and Imran only did this 2 times. I can understand Imran: his bowling and batting highs did not happen simultaneosly, but from what I have read in this thread about the great Miller, I would have thought he would have done the 100/5 double more.

B.T.W. Greig did it 4 times, proving how underrated an allrounder he is on this forum.

Miller's an interesting one there, I initially thought you must have got that stat wrong but thinking about it you're absolutely right - he only did it twice and both came in Australia's 1955 tour of West Indies. I don't really hold it against him though as he produced matchwinning performances that for one reason or another didn't quite match the 100runs/5 wickets criteria.

In his first Ashes Test, for example, he made 79 in his only innings and then took 9 wickets. Against England in 50/51 he took 4/37 then made 145* in his only innings but didn't bowl much in the 2nd Innings as Iverson cleaned up. In a Test against WI in 51/52 he played innings of 20 and 69 (which was actually the top score of the match) and took 7 wickets, while in a Test against SA the following summer he made scores of 52 and 31 and took 7 wickets. And at Lord's in his final Ashes series in 1956, he made 28 and 30 in a low scoring match and took 10 wickets. All of these were MoM performances, or close enough to it, and should be acknowledged as such even if they missed out on an arbitrary statistical criteria.

Agree with you about Greigy though - a tremendous cricketer who often doesn't the credit he deserves for his considerable achievements on the field.

 

[Ikki]

I am going to throw this into the debate:

In my ratings of allrounders, I put in bonus points for the number of times an allrounder has achieved the double of 100 runs/5 wickets in a match. Keep in mind that this does not mean a century/fiver in the same match, which is a great feat, but simply 100 runs across two innings and five wickets across two innings.

Now, what is interesting is that Sobers has done this 7 times, as has Botham.

Miller and Imran only did this 2 times. I can understand Imran: his bowling and batting highs did not happen simultaneosly, but from what I have read in this thread about the great Miller, I would have thought he would have done the 100/5 double more.

B.T.W. Greig did it 4 times, proving how underrated an allrounder he is on this forum.

Might have to do with the fact that Miller bowled about 30 overs a test whilst Sobers bowled about 40. If Miller had bowled as many overs as Sobers per match he'd average 4 wickets a test, in comparison to Sobers' 2.5. Essentially, it's unfair to Miller considering he is restricted in how many overs he bowls per game to match that criteria.

Botham though is very impressive, it's just a shame where he has two distinct forms - great or not-so-great. Although you have to remember these guys played almost twice as many tests as Miller.

BTW, I found 6 instances for Sobers.

 

[howardj]

No, they respect him greatly though, and that's enough IMO.

For sure. There's no harsher judge in world cricket than Ricky Ponting. He's on record as saying Kallis is world class.

 

[SJS]

I am going to throw this into the debate:

In my ratings of allrounders, I put in bonus points for the number of times an allrounder has achieved the double of 100 runs/5 wickets in a match. Keep in mind that this does not mean a century/fiver in the same match, which is a great feat, but simply 100 runs across two innings and five wickets across two innings.

Now, what is interesting is that Sobers has done this 7 times, as has Botham.

Miller and Imran only did this 2 times. I can understand Imran: his bowling and batting highs did not happen simultaneosly, but from what I have read in this thread about the great Miller, I would have thought he would have done the 100/5 double more.

B.T.W. Greig did it 4 times, proving how underrated an allrounder he is on this forum.

Thats a very interesting way of looking at allrounders. If you want to use it , however, you will have to take into account how many tests the player played.

Sobers 7 in 91, Miller 2 in 55, Botham 7 in 102 and Imran 2 in 88 puts the tests per double as

• Sobers : 13
• Botham : 14.6
• Miller : 27.5
• Imran : 44

I think some people are going to squirm at that.
I will put up the tests per DOG-double (to honour DaysOfGrace) for all major all rounders shortly.

 

[Ikki]

Here is a much more accurate way to view Miller's innings:

Miller has 14 matches out of 55 where he takes 5 wickets or more - which he needs to qualify in this 'assessment'.

In 7 of that 14 matches he does not even get to bat the 2nd Innings - either Australia win the match before that or he doesn't get a bat.

Judging him by this criteria essentially belittles his contribution in doing so well in ending the game quicker.

And with from the 2 he does get, the others are:

49 runs with 7 wickets @ 15.5 against WI
89 runs with 7 wickets @ 11.8 against WI
83 runs with 7 wickets @ 16 against SA
55 runs with 5 wickets @ 16.2 against SA *Edit: he only batted 1 innings here.
147 runs with 5 wickets @ 19.6 against WI *Edit: amazingly he only batted 1 innings here too.
109 runs with 8 wickets @ 20.6 against WI *Edit: ridiculously, he only batted 1 innings here again. (A young Sobers played in this one too)
79 runs with 9 wickets @ 8.5!! against England *Edit: Yep, only 1 innings batted.
58 runs with 10 wickets @ 15.2 against England
68 runs with 5 wickets @ 29.4 against England

He did this against very good sides, whilst, not to demean him, Sobers had 3 of his against a very poor India. And in some of the ones he does get, it is purely him bowling a lot of overs. In some, or most, close to 60 overs a test.

So, it's still quite a feat, especially considering he bowled about 10 less overs than Sobers per match which makes achieving this criteria difficult moreso for him than Sobers. And really, I'd take 80 or so runs, even 60 or so, with 7+ wickets than just 100 runs and 5 wickets. Pretty even and match defining in most cases.

 

[The Sean]

49 runs with 7 wickets @ 15.5 against WI
89 runs with 7 wickets @ 11.8 against WI
83 runs with 7 wickets @ 16 against SA
55 runs with 5 wickets @ 16.2 against SA *Edit: he only batted 1 innings here.
146 runs with 5 wickets @ 19.6 against WI *Edit: amazingly he only batted 1 innings here too.
109 runs with 8 wickets @ 20.6 against WI *Edit: ridiculously, he only batted 1 innings here again. (A young Sobers played in this one too)
79 runs with 9 wickets @ 8.5!! against England *Edit: Yep, only 1 innings batted.
58 runs with 10 wickets @ 15.2 against England
68 runs with 5 wickets @ 29.4 against England

Some great work there mate - are you trying to take my crown as CWs biggest Keith Miller groupie? Though in the bolded example above, he actually got 147, not 146.

My name is The Sean and I am a stats pedant.

 

[Ikki]

Some great work there mate - are you trying to take my crown as CWs biggest Keith Miller groupie? Though in the bolded example above, he actually got 147, not 146.

My name is The Sean and I am a stats pedant.

Quite right! LOL

I worked out his batting/bowling stats in these innings:

Bat: 786 runs @ 43.6
Bowl: 92 wickets @ 16.84 with an SR of 46.