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hypothetical questions

vcs

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I accept it certainly seems that way in cricket, though I was talking about tennis there. Bowlers have been forced to add a lot of tricks to their armoury to get batsmen out, and there is perhaps more variation in the types of pitches over 9 different countries. It makes comparing batsmen of today to those of Bradman's era a bit tricky. But I think comparing them to the 60's and 70's batsmen can be done fairly accurately even on the basis of average alone, because the timeframe is shorter and the game hasn't changed that much. If anything, the protective equipment and reduction in intimidatory bowling has made it easier for the batsmen.
 

Top_Cat

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I mean, we're essentially wondering whether superior diet, training, better bats etc. would impact on the ability of modern blokes to do well back in the day. Well, yeah. Stands to reason that better diet, learning from the past, etc., your play should evolve otherwise why bother training at all? I'd go so far as to say it's self-evident.

tbh, I'm inclined to think that the actual subject of the thread is a far less interesting question than whether a player from the 20's/30's, transplanted to here and now with modern training methods and equipment would do well or whether a modern player, transplanted back to the 20's and reared with training methods of the time, would do as well.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
what are the links to the other historic footage you found Mike (or anyone else)?
Judging from the standards of film equipment available there's nothing reliable and certainly nothing that can be legitimately compared with the modern day where someone would get a far better picture from their mobile phone than what is available from back then.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ever play on a damp pitch against blokes who know how to bowl on them?

Find it pretty arrogant that some people in recent threads, rather than reserving judgement or maybe offering some caveats/conditions to their posts because the evidence base is virtually nil, deign to judge an entire generation of players based on a few minutes of crap footage in a game which lasts days at a time.
:laugh:

Exactly.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Hmm.. bagapath, if you were to transplant modern-day cricketers into the cricket scene 70 years ago, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think they'd dominate. Yes, there might be some teething trouble with the lack of protective equipment and the occasional sticky wicket, but it's hard not to see them doing very well against cricketers who, while they might have been immensely talented for their own time, simply haven't enjoyed many of the benefits the modern-day cricketers had when they learnt the game.

There is no doubt that a champion in his era would be a champion in any era if he had the same opportunities and environment as his peers though. Hobbs >> Morgan and Bradman >> Sehwag.
I dont quite agree.
I really do think the batsmen would struggle if they were suddenly transported back 70 years. They'd have to completely reinvent their techniques over night from what they've been doing. It would make a hugeeee difference having little protective equipment, much much weaker bats (I've had a hit with my old mans bat from the 70s. It's bloody ****!) and bigger/slower fields.
 

vcs

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I dont quite agree.
I really do think the batsmen would struggle if they were suddenly transported back 70 years. They'd have to completely reinvent their techniques over night from what they've been doing. It would make a hugeeee difference having little protective equipment, much much weaker bats (I've had a hit with my old mans bat from the 70s. It's bloody ****!) and bigger/slower fields.
I take your points, but I think the pluses would outweigh the minuses overall. Ordinary batsmen wouldn't turn into Bradman, but I'd expect some degree of improvement in the long run. Hard to say with any degree of certainty though!
 

dhillon28

U19 Debutant
Judging from the standards of film equipment available there's nothing reliable and certainly nothing that can be legitimately compared with the modern day where someone would get a far better picture from their mobile phone than what is available from back then.
Total and utter cop out if you ask me.
 

dhillon28

U19 Debutant
thank you so much....Ive been looking for this video for about 12 years or so!!! Could never find it...its so freaking hilarious!! Brought back so many childhood memories.

this is the harry enfield video i was referring to about a week ago that shows how physical motion can be speeded up- a phenomena I feel the trundlers of yore depend upon in order to project themselves as genuinely fast bowlers.

Bottom line.....this video is a satire directed at those sports fans who unequivocally attest that it was as tough in Bradman's day as it is today. Grayson's (the guy at the start of the video) repugnance towards the notion that professional sport will improve playing standards is reminiscent of that shown by fanatical bradmanites towards people such as myself.
 
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Agent Nationaux

International Coach
thank you so much....Ive been looking for this video for about 12 years or so!!! Could never find it...its so freaking hilarious!! Brought back so many childhood memories.

this is the harry enfield video i was referring to about a week ago that shows how physical motion can be speeded up- a phenomena I feel the trundlers of yore depend upon in order to project themselves as genuinely fast bowlers.

Bottom line.....this video is a satire directed at those sports fans who unequivocally attest that it was as tough in Bradman's day as it is today. Grayson's (the guy at the start of the video) repugnance towards the notion that professional sport will improve playing standards is reminiscent of that shown by fanatical bradmanites towards people such as myself.
I guess then you are a Tendulkarite.
 

Analyst1

Cricket Spectator
I've watched cricket since the 1950s and let me tell you that some of the former players treated as Gods on this site (and by a lot of people who haven't watched them play) weren't anywhere as good. When you watch players from your generation, you see them do well but you also see them fail on a regular basis. You see their weaknesses.

When most people look at older players, they see their best knocks on video, a doc where everyone is talking them up or listen to the "oh cricket/cricketers were far better in my day" brigade.

The fact is that there were truly great players then and there are truly great players now. A great player's reputation and legacy grows after he retires. As great as they have been, I've got no doubt that Tendulkar and Lara will be made out to be much greater than they actually have been 25 years down the line.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Bottom line.....this video is a satire directed at those sports fans who unequivocally attest that it was as tough in Bradman's day as it is today. Grayson's (the guy at the start of the video) repugnance towards the notion that professional sport will improve playing standards is reminiscent of that shown by fanatical bradmanites towards people such as myself.
A serious response to your post...

If you can show that cricket in the 1920s was purely amateur then everyone will agree with you that it was not comparable to today. Early accounts are that teams from Canada and the USA acquitted themselves well against amateur teams from England for example.

But Hobbs and Hutton at least were "professionals".

In terms of how much cricket they played back then apparently from 1890 onwards each first class team would endeavour to play 16 3 day matches.

It is possible that modern day players play more cricket due to a more jam packed schedule and hence would be better. This would not cause a night and day difference however as a season full of 16 3 day fixtures is still a busy one. Nonetheless this is one argument in favour of Mike.

The other argument in favour of Mike, I must say ..if you are only facing one fast bowler a game and dibbly dobbler stuff from the other end how hard can scoring a century be if the pitch is true and it doesn't rain. I am willing to wager that sticky wickets didn't happen every game. I play on uncovered turf wickets and I have never played on a sticky wicket. I think if dibbly dobblers really were bowling 30% of the overs then this is a knock on 1920s cricket.

Arguments against Mike and company (sorry for singling you out Mike)

Arguments centred around Jesse Owens being slower than Usain Bolt don't seem relevant for a large number of reasons.

1) god knows what Usain Bolt is putting into his body. No doubt it is legal. But he would be crazy if he isn't pushing the envelope of legality because all of his competitors will be. He would lose those advantages/supplements if he went back in time.

2) cricket - especially batting is not a sport based on athleticism. See Jesse Ryder for proof. So even if you could carry your athletic - supplement induced - form back into time I doubt it would help much in cricket.

I reckon the footage is the only legit thing to make comparisons on. And even that has limitations as Marc has pointed out and (analyst1). Some of the shots in that 1950s film looked pretty decent to me. The leggie bowling looked as good as anything you will see today based on his action. I don't think the game would have changed much between 1928 and 1950. So I reckon some of those shots being played are a point in favour of old time cricket.

The footage of that 1928 test match is too brief. The only thing you can really notice is the bowling.

The clip of that 1901 footage with A N Hornby was not a good advertisement. Hornby if he is the same one on cricinfo somehow managed an average of 24 in first class cricket of the time. Only averaged 3 in test matches which seemed about right.

Lastly Larwood > Michael Mason.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Why? How can a camera which shows so few frames per second show any meaningful evidence as to how good players were?
I reckon I can get something out of it based on the film quality. But my major beef is that you only get to see one or two deliveries to each batsman. It is such a short snippet.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
It would be so awesome to see Sehwag and the Don batting together, both of them trying to reach a triple before the end of the day. :D
he he , I'd take sehwag ! don had quite a few more overs to get to 300 in a day ( over-rates back then were quite a bit faster ) ...sehwag got to 284 in single day ( vs SL ) despite not getting to play 30-45 mins - due to SL batting and then change over
 
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abmk

State 12th Man
Completely disagree. With advancement in science fitness regimes, diets, and training methods have evolved to bring out a much better result from the human body. As a consequence Bolt is able to cover 100 meters far quicker than Owens and many people summit 8000+ meter peaks without Oxygen than 30 years back, even though they inherently might have similar physical characteristics.

Just look at the court speed of Laver and compare it to any top modern player - the difference is huge.
LOL wut ? Laver was only slightly behind the likes of Nadal/Borg in terms of footspeed ... Borg IMHO, is the best mover on a tennis court, along with federer ( and nadal ) ..

While the speed of the field as a whole is slightly more these days than it was before due to the training and fitness regimes , there isn't too much difference in the top tier of players in that regard . Don't see how people can't make such a simple distinction !!
 
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