hussain vs fleming?

[tooextracool]

ive seen alot of people here who rate fleming highly as a captain. but who do u think was the better captain?

for me it would be hussain. i might be biased but someone who could lead an average side and make them WIN in sri lanka and pakistan must be good. he was innovative and used to comeup with really weird field placings. i will never forget the way he worked steve waugh out in the first test in 2003. bowled short into the rib cage with short leg and a slightly finer short leg and he fell into the trap...absolute classic.
i do not think fleming is a bad captain..but i think hussain was just a bit ahead. the first time i took note of flemings captaincy was in the vb series 2001 when he caught a fielder standing behind the stumps...went down the track and smashed mcgrath(?) for a four and then appealed for a no ball.could so easily have notified the umpire before the ball was bowled but instead got 5 runs of a no ball.
what do u guys think?

 

[luckyeddie]

The popular perception of Steve Waugh has been, for the last 15 years, that he had (has) a weakness against short-pitched deliveries.

Hussain hadn't 'worked him out' at all - it was a myth which had a basis in fact at the end of the 1980's but no longer applied. Sure, he was still dismissed in this way every now and again come the end of the 90's but Waugh had identified an obvious flaw in his technique (hands too far forward) and had done something about it.

Re captaincy though, my opinion of Hussain is that he was England's best captain since Brearley

 

[Loony BoB]

I don't know if I'm bias - I don't know too much about Hussain's skills as a captain - but I would say Fleming is the better captain. If Hussain is that good, why isn't he still captain now?

 

[Swervy]

I don't know if I'm bias - I don't know too much about Hussain's skills as a captain - but I would say Fleming is the better captain. If Hussain is that good, why isn't he still captain now?

coz he quit

 

[Raj123]

If Hussain is that good, why isn't he still captain now?

coz his team mates hated his captaincy, i think. that just about sums up his credentials as a captain.

 

[Swervy]

coz his team mates hated his captaincy, i think. that just about sums up his credentials as a captain.

thats not true

 

[luckyeddie]

coz his team mates hated his captaincy, i think. that just about sums up his credentials as a captain.

Well, it was down to politics and the fact that Hussain was left isolated and basically screwed by the ECB and the ICC over Zimbabwe in WC2003.

 

[Raj123]

thats not true

i remember reading one of his interviews after he quit and he was talking about how players were not enjoying the game under his captaincy. Apparently he was a bit tough on the players as a captain and he thought the players would be more comfortable(or rather, happy) under some one like vaughan who is "one of the guys" so to speak, kind of a bloke.

 

[marc71178]

Vaughan is now reaping the benefits of Hussain's captaincy - he was a hard captain and that hardness began to cut the mistakes out.

Vaughan is more laid back, and now the players are relaxed, but not making the mistakes.

I'd still rate Fleming over him though.

 

[luckyeddie]

i remember reading one of his interviews after he quit and he was talking about how players were not enjoying the game under his captaincy. Apparently he was a bit tough on the players as a captain and he thought the players would be more comfortable(or rather, happy) under some one like vaughan who is "one of the guys" so to speak, kind of a bloke.

Funnily enough, captaincy is not a popularity contest.
Saying that, though, I would rate Fleming above Hussain - despite the fact that I praised Hussain as our best skipper for 20 years (that's not saying a lot).

At the moment, the jury's still out on Vaughan. He's made some good decisions, some absolutely crackpot ones. Ask me in 5 years.

 

[tooextracool]

well for me hussain has accomplished alot in just 4 years.... hes converted a very ordinary team into one that ranks alongside SA,india and NZ. fleming on the other hand took more 7 years before managing to raise the bar of his team

 

[badgerhair]

The popular perception of Steve Waugh has been, for the last 15 years, that he had (has) a weakness against short-pitched deliveries.

Hussain hadn't 'worked him out' at all - it was a myth which had a basis in fact at the end of the 1980's but no longer applied. Sure, he was still dismissed in this way every now and again come the end of the 90's but Waugh had identified an obvious flaw in his technique (hands too far forward) and had done something about it.

"Many a pre-Ashes Test meeting stopped when S. Waugh's name hit the projector screen. Half the team got animated and said 'Look, skip, just put in a leg gully and a short leg and we'll pepper him with short stuff. It's only a matter of time.' The other less emotional half, usually the batters and the coach, said, 'No, pitch it up and try to hit his off stump early, because he has a tendency to get his head off-side of the ball a bit, and then there's the chance of him being bowled or lbw.' The final thing always said was that when he first came in, everyone must be on their toes as he loved to push a single and get off strike. Meeting finished. Everyone happy.

"Next day, if we were doing really well and had reduced Australia to 300 for three, we would be pleased with ourselves. In comes Waugh, red handkerchief hanging out of pocket, pushes the ball (usually to someone like dopey Gough standing at mid-on) and scampers a single, smiles and stays off strike for a while. This would be followed by a few short balls (which Waugh finds uncomfortable but never gets out to), and the bowlers begin thinking they had better start pitching it up. They over-correct and these incredible hands start to caress the ball through the covers. Before you know it, you look up at the scoreboard and he's 30 not out and off and running. Groundhog Day! You've seen it all before, but there semes to be nothing you ca do to stop it happening all over again."

- Nasser Hussain on Waugh in the 2004 Wisden

Cheers,

Mike

 

[anzac]

well for me hussain has accomplished alot in just 4 years.... hes converted a very ordinary team into one that ranks alongside SA,india and NZ. fleming on the other hand took more 7 years before managing to raise the bar of his team

considering that Hussain had more resources to work with; a sport with better domestic support financially etc; a better tradition & history of success; and that NZ had to rebuild their team b4 ENG ran into injury probs in AUS; and not to mention that ENG had usually been rated higher than NZ..............

IMO Fleming & Co may have supposedly taken longer, but their achievements have been more significant than just gaining the 3rd ranking (prior to PAK), they have managed to instigate a self belief & postitive attitude in their game & a desire to win & win well - for decades a drawn Home series was seen as a triumph & a lost series was acceptable if they had a test win to show for it, now they have gone from wanting to be competitive, to the expectation of at least achieving a drawn Away series & victory at Home. Futhermore they have instigated a long term gameplan to "revolutionise" their international & domestic games - something not usually associated to their local sport..............

so far as Captaincy goes my vote goes with Fleming - for a long while it looked as if he would go the sameway as so many others "burdoned" with Captaincy, but in the past few seasons he has taken it by the scruff & is giving it a hell of a shake - not only as a tactician, but also as a presence at the crease (even if he did have a poor series with the bat v RSA)..........

 

[anzac]

"Many a pre-Ashes Test meeting stopped when S. Waugh's name hit the projector screen. Half the team got animated and said 'Look, skip, just put in a leg gully and a short leg and we'll pepper him with short stuff. It's only a matter of time.' The other less emotional half, usually the batters and the coach, said, 'No, pitch it up and try to hit his off stump early, because he has a tendency to get his head off-side of the ball a bit, and then there's the chance of him being bowled or lbw.' The final thing always said was that when he first came in, everyone must be on their toes as he loved to push a single and get off strike. Meeting finished. Everyone happy.

"Next day, if we were doing really well and had reduced Australia to 300 for three, we would be pleased with ourselves. In comes Waugh, red handkerchief hanging out of pocket, pushes the ball (usually to someone like dopey Gough standing at mid-on) and scampers a single, smiles and stays off strike for a while. This would be followed by a few short balls (which Waugh finds uncomfortable but never gets out to), and the bowlers begin thinking they had better start pitching it up. They over-correct and these incredible hands start to caress the ball through the covers. Before you know it, you look up at the scoreboard and he's 30 not out and off and running. Groundhog Day! You've seen it all before, but there semes to be nothing you ca do to stop it happening all over again."

- Nasser Hussain on Waugh in the 2004 Wisden

Cheers,

Mike

not exactly a ringing endorsement of his leadership / Captaincy is it?????

 

[Tim]

At the time Fleming was made Captain, he had just turned 23, the administration of cricket in NZ was a joke & our team was barely beating Zimbabwe.
It's no wonder it took him 7 years to get a grip on things whereas Hussain began his Captaincy at a more mature age, yet you cannot deny that he also came in at a time when England were struggling on the field. That's no easy task either even if he was more experienced.

But I think you'd have to pick Fleming basically because he's probably taken NZ to many of its greatest performances in international cricket over the last 2 or 3 years.

 

[Tim]

It'll be interesting to see how Vaughan goes up against Fleming.

Vaughan hasn't really yet faced a quality captain since he became one himself. If Vaughan can demoralise Fleming with the bat then he might be able to measure up quite well.

 

[Mr. P]

"Many a pre-Ashes Test meeting stopped when S. Waugh's name hit the projector screen. Half the team got animated and said 'Look, skip, just put in a leg gully and a short leg and we'll pepper him with short stuff. It's only a matter of time.' The other less emotional half, usually the batters and the coach, said, 'No, pitch it up and try to hit his off stump early, because he has a tendency to get his head off-side of the ball a bit, and then there's the chance of him being bowled or lbw.' The final thing always said was that when he first came in, everyone must be on their toes as he loved to push a single and get off strike. Meeting finished. Everyone happy.

"Next day, if we were doing really well and had reduced Australia to 300 for three, we would be pleased with ourselves. In comes Waugh, red handkerchief hanging out of pocket, pushes the ball (usually to someone like dopey Gough standing at mid-on) and scampers a single, smiles and stays off strike for a while. This would be followed by a few short balls (which Waugh finds uncomfortable but never gets out to), and the bowlers begin thinking they had better start pitching it up. They over-correct and these incredible hands start to caress the ball through the covers. Before you know it, you look up at the scoreboard and he's 30 not out and off and running. Groundhog Day! You've seen it all before, but there semes to be nothing you ca do to stop it happening all over again."

- Nasser Hussain on Waugh in the 2004 Wisden

Cheers,

Mike

Good stuff that and so true.

 

[luckyeddie]

not exactly a ringing endorsement of his leadership / Captaincy is it?????

Whilst I've already stated that it wasn't a popularity contest, neither was it a one-sided dictatorship. Consequently, the whole idea of having a pre-game meeting to discuss aspects of the opposition strikes me as just plain common sense.

It is very difficult to judge captains - look at the likes of Steve Waugh and to a lesser extent Sourav Ganguly. Both have presided over a period of (relative) success for their sides, but were/are they great captains or merely fortunate to be captains of very good/great sides?

I guess we'll never really know.

 

[Swervy]

Whilst I've already stated that it wasn't a popularity contest, neither was it a one-sided dictatorship. Consequently, the whole idea of having a pre-game meeting to discuss aspects of the opposition strikes me as just plain common sense.

It is very difficult to judge captains - look at the likes of Steve Waugh and to a lesser extent Sourav Ganguly. Both have presided over a period of (relative) success for their sides, but were/are they great captains or merely fortunate to be captains of very good/great sides?

I guess we'll never really know.

well i am going to say that Ganguly has been fortunate to have the most talented Indian team of all time playing whilst he has been captain.

Waugh was similarly fortunate, but he certainly did take the same core of players that Taylor had, and fashioned them from being the world number one team, to being the worlds number one team by a huge magin.

 

[luckyeddie]

well i am going to say that Ganguly has been fortunate to have the most talented Indian team of all time playing whilst he has been captain.

Waugh was similarly fortunate, but he certainly did take the same core of players that Taylor had, and fashioned them from being the world number one team, to being the worlds number one team by a huge magin.

My thoughts entirely