Howcome Dravid had never been accused of being Selfish?

[tooextracool]

I personnaly do not think either of them are selfish. My reply was in response to the question. Read the topic of the thread, it is obvious that Dravid being selfish is discussed and believed.

i havent insinuated that that is your argument. im just pointing out that those 13400 people are talking absolute nonsense.

 

[wpdavid]

Its probaly because Dravid can change gears if needed where's Kallis seems to bat the same no matter what the situation. Perfect example the 3rd test in Sydney.. SA needed quick runs so they could declare but thnx to Kallis approach of trying to build up his avg they ended up losing... he didn't even try to accelerate instead he was quite happy blocking and takin his time. I think his whole team was peeved at him just a tad.

The other obvious occasion was the final test against England a year ago when we were waiting for him to accelerate to allow SA at least to square the series, and we kept waiting, and kept waiting, etc, etc. Sure enough, when Smith did declare, SA took a batch of quick wickets, but there really wasn't time by then. Having spent the first half of his innings making sure that his side couldn't lose the game, he spent the 2nd half of it making sure they couldn't win it. Not that I was complaining.

Back to the question, I don't toally buy this anti-SA thing. I certainly don't remember Gary Kirsten being labelled as selfish, and he could block with the best of them. The best answer was probably right at the start of the thread from the guy who pointed out some pieces in Indian sites where Dravid has copped flack as well. Most of us just don't hear about the Dravid bashing, so we assume it doesn't happen.

And I'd have to say that I'd happily see either of them in England's middle order right now.

 

[chekmeout]

In my opinion, Rahul Dravid is the LEAST selfish cricketer playing for India. I mean he isn't a personal favourite of mine.. I prefer the Irfans n' Sehwags of this world but he's one man who'd gives his blood, sweat and tears for the team.... Whenever the opportunity arised..

He kept wicket for the team, despite clearly not liking it too much, it was extremely strenuous on him, his place in the team was secure, he could have easily refused... But for as long as the team required it of him, he did it. And I mean, it takes a LOT of effort to keep wicket, may it only be in ODIs.. This is what allowed India to play 7 batsmen and reach the finals of the 2003 World Cup...

In OD'I's whenever the situation has demanded, he ups the scoring rate, sacrificing his wicket on innumerable occassions...His role in the Indian team is that of the sheet anchor but when the time comes when India need fast runs, Dravid leads the way, often sacrificing his wicket.. I mean I can't recall a single occassion when Dravid seemingly delibrately slowed down his innings when a landmark was approaching.. He's one of the most selfless cricketers India have ever had and possibly ever will have...Never bats for himself, just for the team.. I mean his commitment for the team is exemplified in all his marathon innings concentrating for 13-14 hours .. .This dude's heart bleeds for the country.. And does absolutely any job that the team requires him to.. He's had a fair amount of run-a-ball innings and around that mark...

Dravids never been a BIG HITTER and has never really ever shown the potential to be able to consistently hit big sixes and stuff, which Kallis has... Anyways, I am not commenting on Kallis's selfishness...

When India didn't play the specialist opener in order to accomadate Mr. Ganguly, who was it that stepped up to open the innings?? I mean Dravid isn't fond of opening the innings at all, yet he has opened the innings on so many occassions for the team.... whenever they have lacked an opener.. or wanted to shield an opener.. Some examples that come to mind are in South Africa and New Zealand and of course now in Pakistan.. Dravid isn't an opener.. Never will be.. Yet he has opened the innings purely for the team...

I mean give this guy credit where its due people...

P.S. Phew! Sorry for the outburst :d

 

[open365]

^don't be,that was a very good post.

 

[Jono]

The simple answer is, no one has claimed Kallis is a selfish cricket by looking at his stats. No one.

The claims that Kallis is selfish (and I often have defended Kallis on this board and feel he does get too hard a time sometimes, but I still think he is a selfish player) come from watching the way he bats on certain occasions. His 2nd innings knock against England when Eng toured SA in 04/05 (http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/ENG_IN_RSA/SCORECARDS/ENG_RSA_T5_21-25JAN2005.html) is a very good example, as is the recent Sydney test where the claims re-emerged again.

Despite the fact that he often shows this selfishness, Kallis is still one of my favourite cricketers ever and I'd specifically go to a test match just to see him bat (Dravid too), because I heavily appreciate the concentration and patience these men put into their batting. However when the team needs a change of gears, Dravid does a lot better than Kallis.

Claims of Dravid being selfish would fall flat to anyone with some common sense and a only a little knowledge of cricket. He's sacrificed himself to keep wickets for a number of years (if he kept going I think it would have shaved years off his career) and to open the innings to allow Yuvraj/Ganguly in the team. Not exactly the traits of a selfish man.

 

[Jono]

In OD'I's whenever the situation has demanded, he ups the scoring rate, sacrificing his wicket on innumerable occassions...His role in the Indian team is that of the sheet anchor but when the time comes when India need fast runs, Dravid leads the way, often sacrificing his wicket.. I mean I can't recall a single occassion when Dravid seemingly delibrately slowed down his innings when a landmark was approaching.. He's one of the most selfless cricketers India have ever had and possibly ever will have...Never bats for himself, just for the team.. I mean his commitment for the team is exemplified in all his marathon innings concentrating for 13-14 hours .. .This dude's heart bleeds for the country.. And does absolutely any job that the team requires him to.. He's had a fair amount of run-a-ball innings and around that mark...

Very true, in fact the perfect example of him doing what the team needs is here:

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/IND_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/IND_PAK_ODI1_13MAR2004.html

Bowled on 99 trying to raise the run rate even further.

 

[Richard]

2 reasons:

1) India have a real need for "wall" in their side with all the strokemakers and such around him.

2) Dravid has the ability to change up gears, which kallis either lacks or doesn't want to do.

Certainly Kallis has the ability, he just rarely does it (and it's even rarer for him to play a shot which is more likely to get him out than score - something some stupid commentators criticise him for).
I'd hardly say Dravid's accellerated that often either - it's not something that's really too essential, people just get the misguided impression, at the current time with most batsmen being strokeplayers, that it can't be done without.
I'd hardly say South Africa have other blockers fixed in their Test side, either. Smith, ABdeV, Gibbs, Prince, Boucher, Pollock, van Jaarsveld, etc. are all strokeplayers.

 

[Richard]

Dravid's cautious approach has rescued India on innumerable occasions. Furthermore, he's shown that he can step it up a notch at the end of a one-day match when acceleration is needed. I was a little disappointed in Dravid's delayed acceleration at Nagpur, but he himself admitted later that he made a mistake there. Calling Dravid selfish is absurd. He has kept wickets and opened the batting for the team.

That's the point - calling either is absurd.
Yet Dravid, to his credit, comes-out and says "I made a mistake". Kallis rarely does any talking, to anyone.
Kallis, too, has saved SA (or set them up for victory) on innumberable occasions with his cautious approach.

 

[Richard]

Its probaly because Dravid can change gears if needed where's Kallis seems to bat the same no matter what the situation. Perfect example the 3rd test in Sydney.. SA needed quick runs so they could declare but thnx to Kallis approach of trying to build up his avg they ended up losing... he didn't even try to accelerate instead he was quite happy blocking and takin his time. I think his whole team was peeved at him just a tad. That inning just about summed up Kallis for me.

Of course it had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact he could barely swing his bat?
Any fool could have spotted the fact that he was trying his utmost... but no, knowing it was Kallis, who's been branded as selfish countless times before (exact same thing vs England at Centurion, Fifth Test) it had to be him being selfish again.

 

[Richard]

Maybe the difference is to do with the other facets of their game.

One of them does things he doesn't like doing because it helps the team, whilst the other opts out of doing things when it looks a bit tricky, but is first in line when it's an easy job...

Kallis has refused to bowl, has he?
No, he's just not that good at it any more. Dravid is, reasonably, good at keeping wicket, and has done so without disaster.

 

[Richard]

As far as selfish by blocking is concerned, that in itself that makes absolutely no sense. the most selfish player IMO, is that one that tries to smack half of what he plays out of the stadium, without for one second considering the state of the game or the situation of his team.

99.99% of occasions what's best for the individual is best for the team.
Trying to smack half his deliveries out of the stadium is stupidity, it'll do neither the individual nor the team good.
Scoring runs, however, very rarely does your team any harm.

 

[Richard]

The other obvious occasion was the final test against England a year ago when we were waiting for him to accelerate to allow SA at least to square the series, and we kept waiting, and kept waiting, etc, etc. Sure enough, when Smith did declare, SA took a batch of quick wickets, but there really wasn't time by then. Having spent the first half of his innings making sure that his side couldn't lose the game, he spent the 2nd half of it making sure they couldn't win it. Not that I was complaining.

You'll make Andrew Miller yet.
Once all that time was lost, SA never had a chance of victory, 3 quick wickets or not.
Clearly I was posthumous in my post mentioning that Test...

Back to the question, I don't toally buy this anti-SA thing. I certainly don't remember Gary Kirsten being labelled as selfish, and he could block with the best of them. The best answer was probably right at the start of the thread from the guy who pointed out some pieces in Indian sites where Dravid has copped flack as well. Most of us just don't hear about the Dravid bashing, so we assume it doesn't happen.

I've mentioned the Kirsten thing before... Kirsten (along with Donald) was a very a-typical South African cricketer - I've rarely heard a bad word said about either - even Atherton (have you read his book? Very revealing about why there's so much dislike in English cricket towards South Africa, and much of it backed-up your own words to me on the matter some time ago) said he "got on famously" with Kirsten and Donald.
I also think there's something of the fact that Kirsten never looked great, even when playing attacking shots. There's some kind of unwritten assumption that players who look ungainly can be forgiven for scoring slowly, because people assume they have to "work hard" for it. People like Dravid and Kallis make batting look absurdly easy, and people assume they must have it in them to score quicker when it's perfectly possible that wouldn't often work for them, either.
Atherton himself wasn't often accused of being selfish, either - and he certainly never looked to posses in abundance what's often referred to as "natural talent".

 

[Richard]

In my opinion, Rahul Dravid is the LEAST selfish cricketer playing for India. I mean he isn't a personal favourite of mine.. I prefer the Irfans n' Sehwags of this world but he's one man who'd gives his blood, sweat and tears for the team.... Whenever the opportunity arised..

He kept wicket for the team, despite clearly not liking it too much, it was extremely strenuous on him, his place in the team was secure, he could have easily refused... But for as long as the team required it of him, he did it. And I mean, it takes a LOT of effort to keep wicket, may it only be in ODIs.. This is what allowed India to play 7 batsmen and reach the finals of the 2003 World Cup...

In OD'I's whenever the situation has demanded, he ups the scoring rate, sacrificing his wicket on innumerable occassions...His role in the Indian team is that of the sheet anchor but when the time comes when India need fast runs, Dravid leads the way, often sacrificing his wicket.. I mean I can't recall a single occassion when Dravid seemingly delibrately slowed down his innings when a landmark was approaching.. He's one of the most selfless cricketers India have ever had and possibly ever will have...Never bats for himself, just for the team.. I mean his commitment for the team is exemplified in all his marathon innings concentrating for 13-14 hours .. .This dude's heart bleeds for the country.. And does absolutely any job that the team requires him to.. He's had a fair amount of run-a-ball innings and around that mark...

Dravids never been a BIG HITTER and has never really ever shown the potential to be able to consistently hit big sixes and stuff, which Kallis has... Anyways, I am not commenting on Kallis's selfishness...

When India didn't play the specialist opener in order to accomadate Mr. Ganguly, who was it that stepped up to open the innings?? I mean Dravid isn't fond of opening the innings at all, yet he has opened the innings on so many occassions for the team.... whenever they have lacked an opener.. or wanted to shield an opener.. Some examples that come to mind are in South Africa and New Zealand and of course now in Pakistan.. Dravid isn't an opener.. Never will be.. Yet he has opened the innings purely for the team...

I mean give this guy credit where its due people...

P.S. Phew! Sorry for the outburst

Don't be, it's understandible - anyone calling Dravid selfish is utterly stupid. The central point is not that to call Dravid selfish is justified, it's that to call Kallis selfish is equally stupid.
I'm not sure I agree on the Kallis-hitting-big-sixes stuff. Kallis doesn't hit many sixes, because (like Dravid) his game doesn't revolve around hitting he ball in the air a lot. Kallis may be slightly more powerful than Dravid, but power doesn't mean you're compelled to hit sixes.

 

[Richard]

The claims that Kallis is selfish (and I often have defended Kallis on this board and feel he does get too hard a time sometimes, but I still think he is a selfish player) come from watching the way he bats on certain occasions. His 2nd innings knock against England when Eng toured SA in 04/05 (http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/ENG_IN_RSA/SCORECARDS/ENG_RSA_T5_21-25JAN2005.html) is a very good example, as is the recent Sydney test where the claims re-emerged again.

I'd expect someone like you to understand that, in the SCG game especially, there were very extenuating circumstances.

 

[tooextracool]

99.99% of occasions what's best for the individual is best for the team.
Trying to smack half his deliveries out of the stadium is stupidity, it'll do neither the individual nor the team good.
Scoring runs, however, very rarely does your team any harm.

oh if he gets away with it he'll get a buckload of credit for such a noble innings. however if he falls flat on his face and gets out he'll be criticised for being stupid. I would wonder what people would have said if Pietersen were caught by Tait in that innings after trying to hook almost everyone of Lee's delivieries during his 158. because im sure there would have been several censored words going around.

 

[Anil]

because he is not?

 

[R_D]

Of course it had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact he could barely swing his bat?
Any fool could have spotted the fact that he was trying his utmost... but no, knowing it was Kallis, who's been branded as selfish countless times before (exact same thing vs England at Centurion, Fifth Test) it had to be him being selfish again.

couldn't swing the bat ?... is it because of the injury ?
Least he could've done is shown some intent to score runs rather than try to block out the overs.... the guy wasn't even tryin to look for singles, no one was expecting him to hit 6's or 4's like ANdy Symmonds or Kevin Pieterson but maybe he he would've just rotated teh striker bit more who knows what would've happend.

 

[Jono]

I'd expect someone like you to understand that, in the SCG game especially, there were very extenuating circumstances.

I think that's a compliment so I'll take it...

But I think you misread my post. If you look at the scorecard of that match, what do you see? You see Kallis hitting a ton in the 1st innings and a 50 in the 2nd. No one will call him selfish from that, because the circumstances in the game can't be read on the scorecard usually.

However while watching the game, many people (and to deny it would be fruitless) came to the conclusion that Kallis was not willing to slog at the end. Maybe (and its quite likely to be true) his elbow injury didn't allow that to happen, but then again you cannot blame people for having that impression of him, particularly when that reputation was already there before the innings.

My point was, no one judged him as selfish by just looking at his strike rate and average. They judged him selfish (rightly or wrongly) by watching him bat, and coming to their own conclusions. Many people just happen to come to the same one.

When Gibbs had scored 40+ runs out of the 50 runs scored by SA at that stage, I think Kallis should have sacrificed his wicket (like Boucher has done for Smith before) for the better of the team. It was obvious Gibbs was pretty damn peed off at Kallis after the run out, but like I said, I don't think Kallis always bats for himself, what I do think however is there are times when it looks like he does... whereas Dravid usually doesn't.

 

[shoot_me]

If saving your team's dignity makes a batsman selfish, then dravid is the most selfish ahole cricket has ever seen.

And Kallis is not as highly praised because he does not have the ability to play his game according to the situation whereas Dravid is capable of conforming to the needs of the hour. Kallis seems to be premeditated all the time when he's going for a big innings as if he planned it out, indicating a bit of bad will.

Dravid just rises to the occasion and there just happens to have been lots of occasions where he has had to do that.

 

[Richard]

oh if he gets away with it he'll get a buckload of credit for such a noble innings. however if he falls flat on his face and gets out he'll be criticised for being stupid. I would wonder what people would have said if Pietersen were caught by Tait in that innings after trying to hook almost everyone of Lee's delivieries during his 158. because im sure there would have been several censored words going around.

Yes, indeed. Fortunately people get away with playing said way much less often than they don't.
I'm often pointing-out how playing said way is not neccessarily the best way to go about things.