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How Much Impact Can A Captain Have?

sumantra

U19 Cricketer
Isn't the point with Imran not that they punched above their weight, but for once they played to their potential as a united side, rather than a fractured Pakistan? In other words, they long had the resources, he's just been the (possibly only) man to harness them to their full potential.
ohooo, speechless...
one can't be more accurate than that...being a pakistan fan, which i am, though i am an indian :D, it always saddened me to see a team with so much talent, somehow not being able to achieve what they can...wish there were more captains like him, 100% mate...100%
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I think a lot of the effect that a captain has begins off the field, and affects the results of matches only indirectly, for example, encouraging bowlers to train and be properly motivated. If Shaoib Akhtar had played under Imran Khan he would have been twice the bowler.
Or would have never seen the Pakistan colors after some of his antics

Isn't the point with Imran not that they punched above their weight, but for once they played to their potential as a united side, rather than a fractured Pakistan? In other words, they long had the resources, he's just been the (possibly only) man to harness them to their full potential.
hmmm.....interesting point
 

SamSawnoff

U19 Vice-Captain
Isn't the point with Imran not that they punched above their weight, but for once they played to their potential as a united side, rather than a fractured Pakistan? In other words, they long had the resources, he's just been the (possibly only) man to harness them to their full potential.
I don't know if this is an apocryphal story but apparently before the World Cup final, he threatened them with the law if he could see that they were 'underperforming' deliberately on field.

Now that's a skipper.
 

Bun

Banned
and don't forget sadagoppan ramesh either...it's so scary, even as a viewer to see devang gandhi and sadagoppan ramesh coming out to open the innings against mcgrath and lee (very young and fast those days)...remember rahul dravid said in an interview after the series that the australia bowling line up was the most versatile that he had ever encountered...(mcgrath's line and length, fleming's swing, lee's pace and warne's spin)...think ramesh broke his finger in the second test match and came back... after that prasad and laxman were the openers (devang was dropped)...by the way, i can't remember if deep dashgupta was part of that squad or not, but i am sure the wicket keeper who played all 3 tests was m. s. k. prasad.
Sorry I meant Mannava Prasad only. Thanks for pointing out.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I don't know if this is an apocryphal story but apparently before the World Cup final, he threatened them with the law if he could see that they were 'underperforming' deliberately on field.

Now that's a skipper.
It was not the world cup final I think it was some Sharjah Cup final and he warned the team that if he said something to the effect "I know cricket pretty well and I know you guys pretty well. If I see anyone deliberately under performing I am to put you in jail."....lol...according to Imran the warning seemed to have worked and Pakistan won the final
 

Vijay.Sharma

School Boy/Girl Captain
can't agree with u more on rahul's captaincy...there were times, when he seemed absolutely spineless...that's the biggest bad criticism i have against him...guess, there was something to do with Kiran More and the other selectors, who had tremendous faith on Greg Chappel who they thought was about to turn the team the greatest ever...:D...but mate, dravid under sourav's captaincy was a dream that any captain could have hoped for...it's under sourav that india started to win test matches outside home again...and if i remember correctly, dravid's average under sourav's captaincy in the test matches they won outside india was more than 100...(including australia, england, pakistan and west indies) and it is probably a world record...
LOL yeah! That holds good for Sachin and Lax as well...although Sachin averages better under Dhoni coz of the last 2-3 years.

I think Saurav was the best thing that happened to Indian cricket in a while. Trust me I hated the bugger when he was made captain for two reasons: a. I thought Kumble deserved to be the captain (he had just taken K'taka to the Ranji title recently in the late 90s), and b. this is irrational but Saurav was kinda competition in my eyes to Rahul (I liked Rahul a lot...he actually taught me to play the pull shot and even during Sachin's pomp I was a bigger Rahul fan).

Till Saurav took over, Indians would be happy at Sachin's exploits abroad - the lone warrior and every now and then someone like Azza at Capetown, Rahul at Joburg, and Lax at Sydney would do well. But Saurav built a team and more often than not he would open the batting when it was a difficult target to chase. He led by example...and given he was not in the class of Sachin, the others felt "if Saurav can then even I can"...now such a thought is almost blasphemous when it comes to Sachin...the usual thought would be "after all he is Sachin so he can play like that"...lol.

Saurav changed Indian cricket once and for all.

I am actually enjoying his new role in the commentary box
 

smash84

The Tiger King
yeah his commentary is a breath of fresh air (Ganguly's of course :p)

On the other hand while Ganguly may have brought in the positive attitude he didn't have the Midas touch that Dhoni does. Would still rate Dhoni ahead of Ganguly primarily because Dhoni has worked wonders with some very **** players, more so than Ganguly. Also another thing (which I believe is very important for a captain) is that Dhoni is always so cool and calm which actually rubs off on the team.
 

sumantra

U19 Cricketer
I liked Rahul a lot...he actually taught me to play the pull shot and even during Sachin's pomp I was a bigger Rahul fan).
that is quite a big thing, learning pull shot from Dravid...by the way, that guy used to play it very well, it was a very natural, spontaneous shot for Dravid...wonder, why he left it altogether!!! and thus rarely when he tries it, he doesn't time it properly...how many risk factors does he have to eliminate!!! :unsure:
 

sumantra

U19 Cricketer
Trust me I hated the bugger when he was made captain for two reasons: a. I thought Kumble deserved to be the captain (he had just taken K'taka to the Ranji title recently in the late 90s), and b. this is irrational but Saurav was kinda competition in my eyes to Rahul (I liked Rahul a lot...

Saurav changed Indian cricket once and for all.

I am actually enjoying his new role in the commentary box

i come from bengal, in fact sourav's house is just few blocks away from mine, from the beginning the bengali newspaper has seen sourav and rahul as rivals...and u can easily assume whom they were praising, and whom blaming...suppose sourav scored a century and india won, the newspaper headline will be, "Sourav's Century Has Taken India to A Glorious Victory" or something like that, if in the next match sourav scores 0 and dravid scores a century and india wins, the headline will be "Sourav Failed, But India Still Won"...remember, when both of them went to england to play county cricket in 2000, sourav didn't get runs in the first few matches, then he finally got something like 45 or 46 in a county match, there was a huge report in the sports page (along with a picture) almost covering half of the page, reporting about the sheer class of sourav's innings...then at the end of that same report, there was a small thing said, in just 2 lines, that is rahul dravid is 182* after the first day in another match...there were reporting of this kind every day...and added to the bengalis going GA GA over ganguly, for whatever he does...i mean, it's probably happens that the local newspaper would praise the zonal cricketer a little more than others (though it should not be like that)...i don't know how the reporting was in karnataka those days, but the coverage and reporting of bengali newspapers on sourav ganguly was by far the most biased reporting i have ever seen anywhere...and as a result, i became, so to speak anti-sourav (news paper reportings and the people around), it was difficult to see, that there is one getting praises for doing nothing (sometimes), and there is another, after delivering match after match getting no credit...and in the process i probably ignored sourav's captaincy potential to some extent as well, i liked his come back though, and i became a fan of his in his last 2 years or so...

sourav has changed the face of indian cricket and by far the best captain of modern era of indian cricket

i am loving him as a commentator also, in fact, anyone who has seen his early career advertisements in T. V, would find it astonishing, i mean, the kind of progress in front of the camera he has made...he is a host of a popular T. V show that runs here, in bengal, called "Dadagiri" and he did a very good job there, after watching few episodes of that programme, i was confident that he would well as a commentator as well...
 
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Vijay.Sharma

School Boy/Girl Captain
that is quite a big thing, learning pull shot from Dravid...by the way, that guy used to play it very well, it was a very natural, spontaneous shot for Dravid...wonder, why he left it altogether!!! and thus rarely when he tries it, he doesn't time it properly...how many risk factors does he have to eliminate!!! :unsure:
This was back in 1989 and 1990 summer holidays...I would've turned 13 in August 1990. So I was in the U-13 nets. Now, the regular practice in India those days used to be that the main coach would focus on the senior sides and get some of the better seniors to coach the kids every now and then. Rahul (of course he wasn't Rahul at that time but had already had a big name in the cricketing circles as a competition for Sachin and Kambli) used to play in the U-19 and U-21 and seniors nets ...the bugger was hardly 16 then. So Rahul would "coach" us kids sometimes.

I think the pull shot comes naturally to me too...I love back foot play...maybe because I used to play with my elder bro's friends and all of dem buggers were taller than me so the ball would bounce a lot for me since I was short in comparison. Anyway I would hook more than pull and Rahul taught me the importance of rolling the wrists over to keep the ball down.

Anyway the best innings of Rahul I have ever seen is the one he played in 1991/92 season in Ranji Trophy...probably his first Ranji hundred (not sure)....he used to wear the Vengsarkar panama hat (I always liked that hat for some reason and would borrow it from a friend whenever I went out to bat...superstition). The track he played on was no less than the general fields you find where kids play tennis ball cricket. Bloody 2-3 inch holes on the pitch and the bugger scored a masterful 184(?). In June 1992 we moved to Pune so didn't keep much tab on Rahul's progress then in 96 when he made his debut and scored some 3 runs in 4 innings my friends were going who the eff is he and all. I was like "wait on guys, if they pick him for England you will see him pull as good as Natraj"...prophetic words those were :D
 

sumantra

U19 Cricketer
anyway the best innings of rahul i have ever seen is the one he played in 1991/92 season in ranji trophy...probably his first ranji hundred (not sure)....he used to wear the vengsarkar panama hat (i always liked that hat for some reason and would borrow it from a friend whenever i went out to bat...superstition). The track he played on was no less than the general fields you find where kids play tennis ball cricket. Bloody 2-3 inch holes on the pitch and the bugger scored a masterful 184(?). In june 1992 we moved to pune so didn't keep much tab on rahul's progress then in 96 when he made his debut and scored some 3 runs in 4 innings my friends were going who the eff is he and all. I was like "wait on guys, if they pick him for england you will see him pull as good as natraj"...prophetic words those were :d
:d
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Truly analysing the full impact of someone's captaincy is something that's extremely hard to do, particularly as an outsider, IMO. We can analyse the obvious things - field placements, bowling changes, timing of declarations, decisions at the toss etc - but being a good captain is about so much more than that; it's about getting the most out of your players, and despite the best efforts of everyone's circular logic I don't think it's an aspect of captaincy that can be accurately quantified from outside the team structure.

I think there are small logical fallacies in the way people look at whether a captain gets the most out of his team. We only see the end result - a player's performance - we can't actually tell how much impact a captain has on the standard of that performance. I guess what I'm getting at is that getting the most out of your players does not mean making your players look as crap as possible while still maintaining effectiveness, because that's how a lot of people come up with this 'punching above their weight' stuff, particularly when bigging up captains like Fleming. The argument that a certain captain has good results merely due to the quality of his team and not the quality of his captaincy is somewhat circular, as the holy grail of good captaincy is to create an environment on the field and off as to essentially manufacture good performance. Exactly how much credit should go to the captain is a pure guessing game from outside the team in many instances.

As an example - Steve Waugh had a great side, but there's no real way of knowing, IMO anyway, exactly how much his captaincy can be credited for the quality of the players. Given we only see the end result that is, for example, Hayden's batting, we can't really tell whether Steve Waugh's captaincy influenced it greatly or not. It's hard to give him credit for it one way the other without having an intimate knowledge of the workings of that side and the relationship between Hayden and Waugh.
I like the point that you are making.
 

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