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How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Aussies successfully changing the topic to distract people from the fact that we've exposed Mcgrath is overrated because his entire MO revolved around creating chances in the slips and his plan would fall apart without good catchers. Aussies got no answers. Shook.
I wouldn't say McGrath is overrated as much as he was lucky to have ideal circumstances to get great stats, and we unfairly penalise others who lacked those advantages.

It is worth noting @kyear2 goes on and on about slip importance, even trying to quantify it in terms of runs at one point, but balks when this is applied to a bowler he has already decided is inferior.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I think with switching slip cordons, Wasim basically ends up with McGrath-like figures. Suddenly he is equally effective outside off and pitching it up.

McGrath on the other hand, is hit a bit more given that it is his primary mode of dismissal, averaging 24/25. It not just the drops that he will lose, but all the blinders that contributed to his wicket tally.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Lmao

Not like he played in the most batting friendly era on unresponsive home pitches

Literally the opposite
Even if you want to claim that about McGrath, that was literally only the latter half of his career. Wasim on the other hand had even flatter home wickets his entire career.
 

TheJediBrah

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Even if you want to claim that about McGrath, that was literally only the latter half of his career. Wasim on the other hand had even flatter home wickets his entire career.
Wasim averaged better at home though, despite the flat pitches . . . for *reasons*. Argument definitely doesn't hold up in his case
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Wasim averaged better at home though, despite the flat pitches . . . for *reasons*. Argument definitely doesn't hold up in his case
He averaged better because he adapted his game better there, but objectively those are more difficult conditions to have a home career in for a pacer, even if we consider *reasons*
 

the big bambino

International Captain
It's hard finding stats for dropped catches but I've just seen an article by Davis. He has a number of hedges and qualifications but has a list of dropped catches by countries between 2003 - 2015. Mostly outside Akram's and McGrath's careers but I suppose it gives an indication of what they could've encountered during their careers. Pakistan dropped 30% and Australia 22%.

However he says spin bowlers have suffered the most - 27% of dropped chances vs 23 % for pace. The difference between the 2 bowlers in this thread therefore may not be as great as the team stats say. Not that it really matters - the best teams are proficient in batting, bowling and fielding. McGrath was integral to a great Australian team and a slip cordon can only come into play if a bowler like him gets the chances.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
It's hard finding stats for dropped catches but I've just seen an article by Davis. He has a number of hedges and qualifications but has a list of dropped catches by countries between 2003 - 2015. Mostly outside Akram's and McGrath's careers but I suppose it gives an indication of what they could've encountered during their careers. Pakistan dropped 30% and Australia 22%.

However he says spin bowlers have suffered the most - 27% of dropped chances vs 23 % for pace. The difference between the 2 bowlers in this thread therefore may not be as great as the team stats say. Not that it really matters - the best teams are proficient in batting, bowling and fielding. McGrath was integral to a great Australian team and a slip cordon can only come into play if a bowler like him gets the chances.
Does 22% mean that around 1/5 catches were dropped? Seems a tad high for Australia.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned before, the actual difference is higher since aside from drops, you also have outstanding screamers that Australia have taken and Pak fielders likely never even attempted.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
2017 Champions Trophy
England were favourites to win by the way but Pakistan knocked them out and then India.. Pakistan really over-performed.

2014 T20 Final is probably the only other time which India should have won but thats 10 yrs ago (a year prior in 2013 India happened to win CT by 4 runs vs Eng after scoring just 128 in 20 overs. That was an over-achievement!) 2013 win balances out the defeat in 2014.

In recent years, India just hasn't been the best limited overs side and been especially mediocre in T20s.
 
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capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
England were favourites to win by the way but Pakistan knocked them out and then India.. Pakistan really over-performed.

2014 T20 Final is probably the only other time which India should have won but thats 10 yrs ago. In recent years, India just hasn't been the best limited over side and been especially mediocre in T20s.
I really don't care much for T20s, so not counting the 2014 much, but India really should have won the 2017 CT Final. Damn, I still remember that Bumrah no ball.....
 

kyear2

International Coach
I think with switching slip cordons, Wasim basically ends up with McGrath-like figures. Suddenly he is equally effective outside off and pitching it up.

McGrath on the other hand, is hit a bit more given that it is his primary mode of dismissal, averaging 24/25. It not just the drops that he will lose, but all the blinders that contributed to his wicket tally.
I wouldn't say McGrath is overrated as much as he was lucky to have ideal circumstances to get great stats, and we unfairly penalise others who lacked those advantages.

It is worth noting @kyear2 goes on and on about slip importance, even trying to quantify it in terms of runs at one point, but balks when this is applied to a bowler he has already decided is inferior.
This is what is infuriating about you.

You and many others have spent about a decade speaking of how it's not important, it's not impactful, a sentiment obviously shared by the administrators and persons in charge.

It's not a coincidence that teams like Australia and SA, WI has great cordons, it's something that's cultivated and prioritized from early in development.

@peterhrt highlighted how Simpson was initially brought into the team because Lindwall's chances were going abegging, Sobers initially kept his place in the WI team in part because he was taking blinders in the slips, according to him it likely gave him confidence because he knew be belonged, Hooper kept his place primarily because of it, pretty sure it kept Waugh's position safe and Phil Sharpe was selected just because of the speciality.

Conversely in a conversation over a decade ago @smash84 was arguing that it's not something that teams should base their selections on, ORS has said that it's important, but average is generally good enough.

Anyone who really watched the great Windies or Aussie teams, and saw what Lloyd and Waugh did, knows that isn't true. They didn't just take chances, they created some as well. They also gave the bowlers confidence to keep the ball up, to keep probing for the edge. But that's what's supposed to happen, you support your bowlers.

So to answer your question, certain teams actually built their teams the right way, prioritizing key aspects of the team, and somehow it's an unfair advantage or he was lucky?
The question you should be asking is why wasn't / isn't Pakistan doing the same?

And no one is being penalized, most observers value cricketers as much by the eye test as by the spreadsheet, and Wasim was rated pretty highly. Viv averaged less than Barrington, yet no one with a brain ranks Barrington higher.

So would Wasim's numbers improved with better support? Almost surely... But was McGrath an anomaly? No...

Hadlee, Lillee, the quartet, Steyn, McGrath, Ambrose all had brilliant cordons.

I sometimes wonder if everyone was caught up the the glamour of the big 4 from 80's and totally missed the template that was set.
 

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