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How good is Sanga?
- Thread starter CWB304
- Start date
viriya
International Captain
The 30s had 2 of the greatest spinners in Grimmett and O'Reilly. There were no clear bowling greats that played the majority of their careers in the 40s. Even though Hutton played some matches in the 50s the majority of his Ashes matches did not have as high a bowling standard as Hammond did.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lindwall-Miller-Johnston-Davidson-Benaud?
watson
Banned
The 'top group' are batsman that you'd put in your ATG XI without too much hesitation.
Chappell almost makes that category because of his brilliance against the West Indian quicks during the 1970s and Richard Hadlee most of the time.
However, Chappell fell apart during the 1980/81 season against NZ when he ordered his brother to bowl underarm, and then opted out of the subsequent tour to England thus effectively handing the Ashes to Brearley, Botham, and Willis. During the West Indian tour of 1981/82 he made 7 consecutive ducks and managed only 61 runs during the 3 Tests. Obviously it is being overly picky to place too much emphasis on a batsmen failing briefly agaist Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft and Clarke but unfortunately I watched most of those innings at the time on TV and it was terrible.
None of those above things prevent Chappell from being Australia's second best ever batsman, or being in the upper echelons of batsmanship. But they do create some hesitation when penciling my ATG XI.
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watson
Banned
During the 1930s when Hammond played most of his cricket Australia only had one fast bowler of note - Tim Wall, and with all the best will in the world I don't think that we can compare Wall to the 1940s/50s quicks of Lindwall and Miller, or even Johnston.
But yes, Hammond had to face a pair of ATG spinners in O'Reilly and Grimmett; it's just that for the most part he had a free ride when it comes to fast bowling. Not so Hutton.
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viriya
International Captain
All of them played the majority of their careers in the 50s.. Hutton played them in about half his Ashes matches.. 15 of his 79 total matches.
Lindwall/Miller were great bowlers but not as great as Grimmett and O'Reilly were.
My point is even if Hutton eventually faced better pace bowling, it's unfair to say Hammond faced easier bowling when he clearly faced some ATG bowlers.
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watson
Banned
Facing great quicks is very different to facing great spinners. They are two separate beasts.
Anyway, Hutton scored 364 against Bill O'Reilly in 1938 so he was great at playing spin as well.
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viriya
International Captain
Are you suggesting that facing great quicks is tougher than facing great spinners?
Anyway I was probably being harsh on Hutton, but I'm just pointing out that facing 2 ATG spinners in tandem is something that batsmen haven't had to do since O'Reilly and Grimmett.. Closest to that has been Kumble and Harbhajan, who weren't in the same class.
As good as Lindwall/Miller/Davidson were they were not in the same class as Grimmett and O'Reilly when it came to just bowling. The two spinners made much more of an impact in the matches they played.
Anyway I was probably being harsh on Hutton, but I'm just pointing out that facing 2 ATG spinners in tandem is something that batsmen haven't had to do since O'Reilly and Grimmett.. Closest to that has been Kumble and Harbhajan, who weren't in the same class.
As good as Lindwall/Miller/Davidson were they were not in the same class as Grimmett and O'Reilly when it came to just bowling. The two spinners made much more of an impact in the matches they played.
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watson
Banned
No. I'm saying that in the ideal world it is easier to rate ATG batsman who have competed regularly against both great fast bowlers and great spinners. Hammond was never really tested by a 'decent' pace attack at the Test level apart from after WWII when he was past it anyway.
kyear2
International Coach
Hutton faced far greater bowlers, especially fast bowlers. With regards to spinners Hutton scored a work record at 23 vs O'Reilly and also scored hundreds vs Ramadin and Valentine at their very peak.
Hammond struggled mightily vs the W.I quicks and they were hardly atg standard.
Hammond struggled mightily vs the W.I quicks and they were hardly atg standard.
simonlee48
School Boy/Girl Captain
Interesting angle regarding Chappell here. I started watching from mid 80s and missed all of this.
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smash84
The Tiger King
Blogs: Anantha Narayanan: Test streaks: 52 and 27 matches long | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
One of the comments below echoes my sentiments actually (and the writer's too I suppose)
One of the comments below echoes my sentiments actually (and the writer's too I suppose)
simonlee48
School Boy/Girl Captain
I bracket batsmen as ,
Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Lara
Chappell, Ponting, Gavaskar, Border, Kallis, Dravid, Miandad
AB, Sanga, Clarke, Waugh
^ Just the names came in my mind. I have seen most of them.
Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Lara
Chappell, Ponting, Gavaskar, Border, Kallis, Dravid, Miandad
AB, Sanga, Clarke, Waugh
^ Just the names came in my mind. I have seen most of them.
simonlee48
School Boy/Girl Captain
I have not come across many fans who rate Waqar above IK. Don't know where the writer on ESPN got this idea.
Ooops, just noticed that comment was from some reader there. I mistook your post.
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Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I'd go something like (post WW2)…
Bradman
Sobers
Tendulkar - V.Richards - Hutton - G.Chappell - Weekes - Ponting
Kallis - Sangakkara - S.Waugh - May - Pieterson - MoYo - Miandad - N.Harvey - DeVilliers - Walcott - G. Smith - Hayden - Greenidge - Gooch
Worrell - M.Hussey - M.Waugh - Jayawardene - Haynes - Bell
Not comprehensive or anything, more based on which players I think are more influential to their teams, and my personal opinion. All these players are "gold tier" or whatever in my opinion, however the bottom line is much closer to silver tier than the third.
Bradman
Sobers
Tendulkar - V.Richards - Hutton - G.Chappell - Weekes - Ponting
Kallis - Sangakkara - S.Waugh - May - Pieterson - MoYo - Miandad - N.Harvey - DeVilliers - Walcott - G. Smith - Hayden - Greenidge - Gooch
Worrell - M.Hussey - M.Waugh - Jayawardene - Haynes - Bell
Not comprehensive or anything, more based on which players I think are more influential to their teams, and my personal opinion. All these players are "gold tier" or whatever in my opinion, however the bottom line is much closer to silver tier than the third.
simonlee48
School Boy/Girl Captain
I am bit surprised to see you put MoYo up there in 2nd line. He was pretty poor against spin or bounce. He rarely had good time in SL/Ind or Aus/SA. That's 30 tests out of 90 tests for him. He played another 30 in Pakistan. If Pakistan had turning tracks like Ind or SL , I think he would have had a horrible career. He was one of the most elegant batsman to watch for sure. I found him very pleasing to watch.
Nothing against your opinion but just added my thoughts here because I noticed him having trouble against spin or bounce on consistent basis. I don't think, he had a great time on turning or bouncy pitches even in shorter formats. I thought his team mate Inzzy had much better skills to deal with spin. Both had issues with bounce though.
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