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How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

  • Total voters
    78
JBMAC

JBMAC

State Captain
Richard said:
Yeah, exactly. As I've always said about Lillee, there was so much besides his bowling ability that stood-out about him - his aggression, his persona, the fact that he was pretty much from debut to final game better than any other bowler in his side (something virtually no-one else has ever achieved) and above all the fact that he overcame injuries that would have broken the careers of pretty much anyone else.

So that means, IMO, he often gets credit for being a better bowler than those who did a much quieter job, even if the quieter types did it better.
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IMPO Lillee was the bowler talked about in that old piece of Cricketing Poetry

"An hour to play and the last man in,
His Captains hand on his shoulder smote,
Play up and Play the game''

or some such words...Archie might be able to dig up a copy from somewhere.
 
Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I think Dennis Lillee has finally upstaged Murali Vs. Warne on CW, another reason why he is such a legend.
 
Perm

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My Dad made an interesting comment the other night actually, saying that Dennis Lillee is the second greatest cricketer to ever play for Australia and the best bowler he has ever seen. Now he doesn't quite have the cricketing knowledge that a lot of members here possess, but he did watch an awful lot of cricket during the 70's and 80's and seen some magnificent bowlers during that period, and indeed in recent times with Warne, McGrath and Muralitharan. To state that Lillee is the best he has seen is a fair reflection of the impact that Lillee had on people I feel, I think he was once described on CW as a "***y bowler" who perhaps gained more credit because of the way he did things. Definately a legend, even if he isn't the best bowler.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Perm said:
My Dad made an interesting comment the other night actually, saying that Dennis Lillee is the second greatest cricketer to ever play for Australia and the best bowler he has ever seen. Now he doesn't quite have the cricketing knowledge that a lot of members here possess, but he did watch an awful lot of cricket during the 70's and 80's and seen some magnificent bowlers during that period, and indeed in recent times with Warne, McGrath and Muralitharan. To state that Lillee is the best he has seen is a fair reflection of the impact that Lillee had on people I feel, I think he was once described on CW as a "***y bowler" who perhaps gained more credit because of the way he did things. Definately a legend, even if he isn't the best bowler.
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Well TBH I described him along those lines about 12 hours ago... :unsure:
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Perm said:
My Dad made an interesting comment the other night actually, saying that Dennis Lillee is the second greatest cricketer to ever play for Australia and the best bowler he has ever seen. Now he doesn't quite have the cricketing knowledge that a lot of members here possess, but he did watch an awful lot of cricket during the 70's and 80's and seen some magnificent bowlers during that period, and indeed in recent times with Warne, McGrath and Muralitharan. To state that Lillee is the best he has seen is a fair reflection of the impact that Lillee had on people I feel, I think he was once described on CW as a "***y bowler" who perhaps gained more credit because of the way he did things. Definately a legend, even if he isn't the best bowler.
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To be fair, that does seem to be the majority opinion of those who watched him from start to finish - my dad is pretty much of the same opinion, as are most other Australian blokes' dads. Bradman, Benaud and Willis are just three who have claimed him to be the greatest fast bowler they ever saw and I know Botham, Richards, Hadlee, Marshall and Imran all rate him at or near the very top.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him being the undisputed number 1 (I'm on record on CW in saying that I think Macko is the greatest of all). But I also have always been of the school of thought that when the opinion of peers, contemporaries and observers is so near-unanimous as it is over DK Lillee then it does add a lot of credibility to the claim.
 
P

Poker Boy

State Vice-Captain
A Few thoughts: You can't judge a career in a country on three Tests. In Lillee's day Australia did not got to the subcontinent a lot. There was another tour of Pakistan which he declined, and one of India for which he was ineligiable because of WSC. Whereas with warne people say his record in India was poor (correct) but he was poor against India period. (He averaged 43 in India, but 47 against them overall.)
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And equally, in Warne's case that (like Murali in Australia and Kallis vs Australia) is not a fair criticism. Warne started his career (when he was just crap full-stop; same true of Kallis) against India, and unfortunately for him (and Kallis) the team he started poorly against happened to be the one that would later become his bogey-team. Hence (like Kallis) the fact that he did achieve something of note (several times) against said bogey-team is often overlooked because this start makes a poor record look abysmal.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The Sean said:
But I also have always been of the school of thought that when the opinion of peers, contemporaries and observers is so near-unanimous as it is over DK Lillee then it does add a lot of credibility to the claim.
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I just don't see, TBH, where the notion that it is near-unanimous in Lillee's case comes from. I've heard loads who rated Marshall the better bowler, and often they were people like me, who judged less by face-value and things outside the actual bowling ability, and purely on bowling ability and achievements.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Pup Clarke said:
What d'ya mean by face-value? :huh:
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The obvious stuff, like having all the tools, and having the attitude\aura\aggressiveness\etc. to go with it.

Guys who judge purely on that might adjudge, for instance, Adam Gilchrist to be a greater ODI batsman than Nick Knight, without even bothering to compare their actual achievements.
 
P

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
He was overweight, lazy and spoilt tbh, it wasn't until a chat with Terry Jenner just after his test debut which sorted him out.
 
P

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Anyone know what Warne's test debut came on the back of, was he getting plenty of wickets in domestic cricket or was it more to do with his potential
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Certainly wasn't getting plenty of wickets, his record for Victoria has almost always been pretty average. Was presumably just someone decided he had potential (he had attended - and dropped-out of - the Academy after-all) and that it'd be a great idea to chuck him into Tests before he was actually very good (as people have a tendency to do).

It didn't stop him being very good ITE, but it did mean perhaps as his career went on he was criticised unfairly for certain things.
 
archie mac

archie mac

International Coach
Richard said:
I just don't see, TBH, where the notion that it is near-unanimous in Lillee's case comes from. I've heard loads who rated Marshall the better bowler, and often they were people like me, who judged less by face-value and things outside the actual bowling ability, and purely on bowling ability and achievements.
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You keep saying 'Loads' but apart form a few members on here, you don't give us any names of Cotemporary (spelling) players who rated him lower than No1 or No2
 
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