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Hayden the best bat since this century?

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Its much easier to play yourself in when the ball has gotten a bit older and the pressure is less intense as is the case for middle order batsmen in general.
Haha, what are you basing this on? I'd say that there's a lot less pressure coming in at 0/0 than coming in at 4/50. If an opener gets out first ball, he could still be confident that his team would go on to make a decent score. If you come in at 4/50 and get out first ball, your team is ****ed.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Scoring quickly isn't all it is cracked up to be, though.

For all that is made of sending a bowler around the park to destroy morale, there is an equal case for grinding the bowlers into ground not only mentally by physically as well, by building long partnerships, wearing out all the bowlers and sending them mad trying to think of how the hell they are going to get a wicket. I'd be much more demoralised as a bowler if I failed to take a wicket for two sessions than if a batsman got hold of me a bit, hit a few boundries and managed to get a score quickly. Long periods with a wicket, IMO, is a lot more damaging to a bowler's confidence than a few quick runs - or at least it should be to test bowlers.
I guess you can make that argument, but we're talking of batsmen who score similar rates but just do it differently. And in that context, scoring quicker is not only harder to do, it is much better for the team - unless you are actually planning for a draw.

Another argument often made is the fact that quick scoring promotes victories which slow scoring can cost them. Well that's all well and good if you play for Australia, I suppose, but what if you aren't the better team in the test? All of a sudden that run-a-ball 90 from your opener in the first innings and then his 10 off 12 in the second dig doesn't look so good when you end up losing the game in the last hour with the tail failing their desperate attempts to block out a draw. For all that quick scoring can gain a team in the cause of winning, it can cost a team if they find themselves in a situation where they need to save the match.
Again, essentially, unless you're actually setting out to tie the match, scoring quickly is the way to go. You save balls and you give the rest of the team a go. Whilst scoring slowly not only does not save balls for other batsmen, you risk taking too much time in scoring the same amount of runs someone else may score, in the opposition, in a quicker time, and eventually drawing or even losing a match you could have won. Whilst scoring quickly will never cost you a game, scoring slowly actually might.

I'm not, in any way, saying that slow scoring > fast scoring. But as far as test matches go, it actually isn't the other way either, contrary to popular belief. Different situations require different approaches and simply crease occupation can be more appropriate than quick scoring depending on how the game is traveling. Mental deterioration can be achieved through smashing bowlers around, but it can also be achieved through long unbroken partnerships - and the latter aids in physically tiring the bowlers as well.

True, it may not matter in some games whether a batsman scores at an SR of 40 compared to one of 60-65, but it is still better to get that same score faster. Again, unless your batsmen are falling like flies and you need to go for the tie, scoring faster is better.

You'll never see me hold scoring quickly against a batsman as it can obviously be advantageous, but it certainly doesn't make one batsman better than another who scores the same amount of runs as scoring slowly can turn out advantageous as well.
Just because it can, doesn't mean it is equal though. If batsmen X and Y average 55 each and one strikes even 10 balls faster, that one is the better batsman for your team. Also in terms of skill, it is harder to score faster. If you try to bat faster and score the same amount of runs, you're basically vulnerable in taking up shots that are best left alone, and if you are scoring off those balls it demonstrates a higher skill.


I couldn't disagree more. As an opener, ensuring you spend time at the crease is more important than in any other position. Tiring the new ball bowlers and seeing the shine off the ball to protect the middle order is an opener's first job. Dominating is not at all important, especially as an opener.
The new ball is not going to remain new having it's shine knocked off. Nor are captains likely to keep bowlers that are getting hammered on. This is a case where it's much better for your own team. If you score faster, it means the batsmen below you not only have winded bowlers to face, but have much more time doing it.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Haha, what are you basing this on? I'd say that there's a lot less pressure coming in at 0/0 than coming in at 4/50. If an opener gets out first ball, he could still be confident that his team would go on to make a decent score. If you come in at 4/50 and get out first ball, your team is ****ed.
4/50 is not going to occur everyday, 0/0 is.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
In Haydens last 30 ODI's he's averaged 60.33, which is amazing.

72.12 in his last 20, and 84.08 in his last 15.

The man is in the form of his life, flat track bully he may be labelled but if thats the case, then bowlers beware because he scores runs like no other. A average of 50+ in ODI's is formidable, but 60 70 80? Thats scary.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Kaz said:
I guess you can make that argument, but we're talking of batsmen who score similar rates but just do it differently. And in that context, scoring quicker is not only harder to do, it is much better for the team - unless you are actually planning for a draw.
Either you misinterpreted my point, I'm mistinterpreting yours, or this is a point totally irrelevant to the one you quoted. All things other than strike rate remain equal in my examples - for example, we're comparing 50 (50) with 50 (150). Put that 50 (150) in combination with someone who bats for just as long and you will demoralise the bowlers infinitely more than the quickfire 50 from a batsman always looking like he'll give you a chance. Being unable to take a wicket for a long period will do just as much if not more mental damage to a bowler as someone hitting them around the park for 6 overs.


Kaz said:
Again, essentially, unless you're actually setting out to tie the match, scoring quickly is the way to go. You save balls and you give the rest of the team a go. Whilst scoring slowly not only does not save balls for other batsmen, you risk taking too much time in scoring the same amount of runs someone else may score, in the opposition, in a quicker time, and eventually drawing or even losing a match you could have won. Whilst scoring quickly will never cost you a game, scoring slowly actually might.
It can't prevent you winning a game (without bringing in strange reactionary declarations here..) but it can certainly lead to a loss. Win > Draw, obviously, but by the same token, Draw > Loss. This is something that is lost a lot of people in the persuit of quick scoring. Quick scoring can lead to you losing a game you could have saved if you had scored your runs more slowly.

Kaz said:
The new balls is not going to remain new having it's shine knocked off.
Hitting a few quick fours won't age the ball even half as much as staying out there for a session.

Kaz said:
Nor are captains likely to keep bowlers that are getting hammered on.
Indeed - the best bowlers will instead be fresh and fired up for the next batsman in!

Kaz said:
If you score faster, it means the batsmen below you not only have winded bowlers to face, but have much more time doing it.
And if you score slowly, the batsmen below you will have a ragged, tired attack with a rubbish old ball to face. Both are advantageous in their own ways.
 
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abcdef

Cricket Spectator
In Haydens last 30 ODI's he's averaged 60.33, which is amazing.

72.12 in his last 20, and 84.08 in his last 15.

The man is in the form of his life, flat track bully he may be labelled but if thats the case, then bowlers beware because he scores runs like no other. A average of 50+ in ODI's is formidable, but 60 70 80? Thats scary.
I agree. He only seems to get better. He is not an FTB (as some would have you believe). He scores runs everywhere. I think he could well play till he is around 39-40 for Australia. No other Aussie domestic opener comes close. So why replace him?

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64002.html This was done in heat exceeding 50C Notice no other playe got half century, most of them barely getting into double figures.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
He's treated harshly by many on CW, he's a real character IMO, for everyone of his technical problems, he has the mental and physical prowess to overcome them, and eventually eliminate them.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Either you misinterpreted my point, I'm mistinterpreting yours, or this is a point totally irrelevant to the one you quoted. All things other than strike rate remain equal in my examples - for example, we're comparing 50 (50) with 50 (150). Put that 50 (150) in combination with someone who bats for just as long and you will demoralise the bowlers infinitely more than the quickfire 50 from a batsman always looking like he'll give you a chance. Being unable to take a wicket for a long period will do just as much if not more mental damage to a bowler as someone hitting them around the park for 6 overs.
But I am not talking about 1 match, I meant career strike-rates. If you have two batsmen who average 50 for their careers, but one strikes at 100 - as you point out - and one at 33, then it's a no-brainer.

And I guess I just disagree with you. Being a bowler, getting hit for runs is the most demoralizing thing. I don't care if a batsman stays at the crease getting nothing from me. If anything, that'd make me think I always have a chance since I am not being hit around with ease.




It can't prevent you winning a game (without bringing in strange reactionary declarations here..) but it can certainly lead to a loss. Win > Draw, obviously, but by the same token, Draw > Loss. This is something that is lost a lot of people in the persuit of quick scoring. Quick scoring can lead to you losing a game you could have saved if you had scored your runs more slowly.
How can't it? Say you're batting in the 4th inning and you're chasing a high total. You NEED a high-strike rate so it doesn't come down to the wire where it might cost you a draw or even worse a loss. Whilst scoring those same runs at a faster rate will give your team a chance to attain a higher score.

Quick scoring will only lead you to lose IF you don't score enough. Which is the whole point here; we are comparing two batsmen that SCORE the SAME amount, one just does it faster.


Hitting a few quick fours won't age the ball even half as much as staying out there for a sessions.
A session? Unless you bat for a 3-4 hours you don't really have as much of a case. And if the person who bats for 3-4 hours makes a score of 150, then the batsman who scores the same amount but faster will do much more than just hit a few fours. And that will certainly age the ball anyway.


Indeed - the best bowlers will instead be fresh and fired up for the next batsman in!
After getting hit around for 100, say?

And if you score slowly, the batsmen below you will have a ragged, tired attack with a rubbish old ball to face. Both are advantageous in their own ways.
They're still going to be tired, unless we are talking about a batsman hitting every ball for 6. But I guess you do have a point, they'll be more tired, but mentally they'd be pretty f'd if they concede that many runs in such a short time.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Win > Draw

100%

You can't say afterwards he should have went for the draw if he hit 150 from 100, because he was going for the win. Simple as that, do you want to win or do you just not want to lose?

Aus cricket. :laugh:
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
But I am not talking about 1 match, I meant career strike-rates. If you have two batsmen who average 50 for their careers, but one strikes at 100 - as you point out - and one at 33, then it's a no-brainer.
No, not really. Scoring at 33 can be just as useful as scoring at 100. Regularly.

Quick scoring will only lead you to lose IF you don't score enough. Which is the whole point here; we are comparing two batsmen that SCORE the SAME amount, one just does it faster.
Nah, you're missing the point of a draw here, slightly. If you need to bat out a session to win the game, scoring 20 off 150 is going to be much more beneficial than scoring 20 off 20. Same score; slower one is better. The same applies to all previous batting efforts in the game - as soon as you are trying to save a match, scoring the same amount of runs at a slower rate helps. A first innings effort of 1 (100) is all of a sudden more useful to your cause than 200 (99). Obviously these are absolute extremes, but it shows that having a high strike rate doesn't mean you are neccessarily more use to your team.

They're still going to be tired, unless we are talking about a batsman hitting every ball for 6. But I guess you do have a point, they'll be more tired, but mentally they'd be pretty f'd if they concede that many runs in such a short time.
Test bowlers shouldn't be all that concerned about getting hit for a few. It happens. The inability to take any wickets would really cast doubt into their minds, though.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Indeed. So being equal first is a damn sight better than being last. ;)
:laugh:

9 times out of 10 the victory should be sought rather than the draw, (the other 1 from the 10 being when your opponent is ahead of you by 500 runs and you only have a day and they still have an innings scenario).

But thats just my opinion, nothing to wrong with a draw, but its not winning.
 

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