Group C - New Zealand, England, Kenya, Canada

[Pup Clarke]

Freddie has been man enough to accept his mistake and thats what really matters in the end,i can only say one thing to Freddie now "Respect Maan".

But Freddie needs to get rid of his drinking problem as soon as possible for his team and his career's sake (and also for his millions of fans including myself).

Just because he's apologised doesn't mean that his actions should be forgotten or that he should get sympathy.You could needed to see his performance at Trafalgur Square after the Ashes to see the state his gets into.This is a serious breach of peace IMO and during a WC is very stupid and irresponsible.

 

[Prince EWS]

Of course heavy drinking is going to have a detrimental affect on performance. It doesn't matter what you do for a living...it kills brain-cells and reduces mental and physical fitness.

So by that logic, anyone who has a job at all should stop drinking alcohol totally because it effects their performance? Theoretically that's probably right, but in practice it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

Drinking is legal - people are free to drink. They shouldn't have this freedom taken away from them just because they play cricket...

 

[Pup Clarke]

Drinking is legal - people are free to drink. They shouldn't have this freedom taken away from them just because they play cricket...

But drinking will inevitably affect his performance IMO.He has to make the right choice and getting plastered after losing a game of cricket is not one of them.

 

[Prince EWS]

But drinking will inevitably affect his performance IMO.He has to make the right choice and getting plastered after losing a game of cricket is not one of them.

Drinking will effect anyone's performance in anything they do if Fiery is correct. So you could say the same about any person in any profession.

There are lots of cricketers who drink alcohol so I can't believe I'm having this conversation tbh.

 

[wpdavid]

Drinking will effect anyone's performance in anything they do if Fiery is correct. So you could say the same about any person in any profession.

There are lots of cricketers who drink alcohol so I can't believe I'm having this conversation tbh.

Neither can a lot of us, I would imagine. There is a difference between drinking alcohol and getting out of your skull at a ridiculous hour of the day 48 hours before a WC game. As for the "anyone in any profession" line of thought, most people's professions aren't reliant on physical fitness, so the reference is a strange one imho. And surely the idea that you can abuse your body & perform to the best of your ability is something that went out with the flat earth society.

 

[Prince EWS]

Neither can a lot of us, I would imagine. There is a difference between drinking alcohol and getting out of your skull at a ridiculous hour of the day 48 hours before a WC game.

I wasn't defending Flintoff's actions though - I jumped in the argument late when Fiery said that Flintoff should give up drinking altogether.

As for the "anyone in any profession" line of thought, most people's professions aren't reliant on physical fitness, so the reference is a strange one imho. And surely the idea that you can abuse your body & perform to the best of your ability is something that went out with the flat earth society.

According to Fiery though, drinking burns braincells, so any profession which relies on thought would be effected.

 

[wpdavid]

I wasn't defending Flintoff's actions though - I jumped in the argument late when Fiery said that Flintoff should give up drinking altogether.

Oh OK, I lost track of that.

According to Fiery though, drinking burns braincells, so any profession which relies on thought would be effected.

Gotcha.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

There is nothing wrong with drinking heavily. Heck, I do it once a week at least.

But in Flintoff"s case, he IS a professional sportsman, he IS a role-model.

On the professional sportsman side.
While drinking in the off season is all fine and well, drinking during a season, and especially during a tournament, is a big no-no. At the amateur level, ofcourse drinking after a match is a big part of team bonding. But thats because everyone is an amateur. They are not getting paid ridiculous salaries to play. They are playing for the fun of it and, in some cases, just for the aftermatch bender.
However, if you are getting paid ridiculous salaries to play a sport you shouldn't be drinking, IMO. Yes, you should be enjoying it, otherwise there is no point, but it is also your job, you are an elite sportsman, you are representing your country. With that comes responsibility. Drinking heavily during a major tournament? Is that responsible? Does that show your commitment to you team, and country? In my eyes thats disgaceful, come on mate, wait till after the tournament ends, and go on a big 3 day bender for all I care, just make sure you dont do anything stupid in public. If you do, then its best you stay home and get sloshed. Your a professional sportsman, not a professional drinker.

On the role-model side.
It doesnt matter if you are a professional sportsman, a public servent, a movie star. Basically anybody under the scrutiny of the public can be considered a role-model. Just look at young andmark (who has Flintoff in his avatar). I haven' conversed with him before, but I know he is young, and obviously he supports Flintoff (if I'm wrong then excuse the example). For every andmark there are thousands of other youngsters that look up to someone like Flintoff. What are they suppose to think of Flintoff intoxicated during a major tournament and causing a commotion in public? Are they suppose to think that he is a dead-set legend ? If they do, thats a bad thing. Young people need to be shown that what he did WAS wrong. End of story. Because it WAS wrong, right? Anybody on here who views somebody capsizing a boat while indoxicating as not being wrong needs their head read. Seriously, I would be embarrased if I was Flintoff, and I'm not even a public figure.

It's all about responsibility folks. To your employers, team mates, fellow countrymen, sporting fans world over. The spot light is on you and you have to act accordingly. You chose to become a sportsman, and made it all the way to the top. You have to accept the baggage that comes with that. If you can't, then you have no business being there

 

[GIMH]

Don't agree with Flintoff's ban personally, being stripped of the VC maybe, maybe not, but as long as players can perform fully, I don't care what they get up to in their time. Agree with Botham on this issue.

I do feel Flintoff let us down, but stripping him of the VC was maybe a bridge too far. Haven't caught up on all the weekend's posts, but my personal conspiracy theory is that they want him captaincy-free, as he performs better when not burdened with it. I also don't believe he'd have been banned for the game had it been against, say, Australia or any top 10 nation tbh

Who is vc now? Strauss isn't in the XI, and although he'd probably come in for Vaughan if Vaughan did get injured it'd be a bit odd for him to come in as captain. I guess it's Colly?

Sorry if this is rehashing previous posts.

 

[pasag]

There is nothing wrong with drinking heavily. Heck, I do it once a week at least.

But in Flintoff"s case, he IS a professional sportsman, he IS a role-model.

On the professional sportsman side.
While drinking in the off season is all fine and well, drinking during a season, and especially during a tournament, is a big no-no. At the amateur level, ofcourse drinking after a match is a big part of team bonding. But thats because everyone is an amateur. They are not getting paid ridiculous salaries to play. They are playing for the fun of it and, in some cases, just for the aftermatch bender.
However, if you are getting paid ridiculous salaries to play a sport you shouldn't be drinking, IMO. Yes, you should be enjoying it, otherwise there is no point, but it is also your job, you are an elite sportsman, you are representing your country. With that comes responsibility. Drinking heavily during a major tournament? Is that responsible? Does that show your commitment to you team, and country? In my eyes thats disgaceful, come on mate, wait till after the tournament ends, and go on a big 3 day bender for all I care, just make sure you dont do anything stupid in public. If you do, then its best you stay home and get sloshed. Your a professional sportsman, not a professional drinker.

On the role-model side.
It doesnt matter if you are a professional sportsman, a public servent, a movie star. Basically anybody under the scrutiny of the public can be considered a role-model. Just look at young andmark (who has Flintoff in his avatar). I haven' conversed with him before, but I know he is young, and obviously he supports Flintoff (if I'm wrong then excuse the example). For every andmark there are thousands of other youngsters that look up to someone like Flintoff. What are they suppose to think of Flintoff intoxicated during a major tournament and causing a commotion in public? Are they suppose to think that he is a dead-set legend ? If they do, thats a bad thing. Young people need to be shown that what he did WAS wrong. End of story. Because it WAS wrong, right? Anybody on here who views somebody capsizing a boat while indoxicating as not being wrong needs their head read. Seriously, I would be embarrased if I was Flintoff, and I'm not even a public figure.

It's all about responsibility folks. To your employers, team mates, fellow countrymen, sporting fans world over. The spot light is on you and you have to act accordingly. You chose to become a sportsman, and made it all the way to the top. You have to accept the baggage that comes with that. If you can't, then you have no business being there

Total overreaction. This posts illustrates, quite frankly, everything that is wrong with sports in today's day and age.

Your post is based on the assumption that sportsmen are supposed to be these mythical heroes, there to inspire the young and be an example to all. Why? That has never made any sense to me. They are there to play cricket and the fact they do, shouldn't impede their rights to do almost anything they want whilst not playing. And to say "...what he did WAS wrong. End of story", why is that? I don't see how it was wrong, I think it was pretty cool. Do you want every cricketer out there a carbon copy of each other? Characters are what make the sport great. Always have always will. But stuff like that is dying out because of stuff like this. If a player steps outside the conservative line, when a player does something out of the ordinary, something that doesn't fit in with the hypocritical standards of society, they are all sudden victim to a MASSIVE overreaction.And it's the overreactions of 90 year old men in ageing homes whining about the degrading moral fabrics of society and the youth of today. It's rubbish.

Flintoff is a dead-set legend. for drinking, for taking out a boat and capsizing it, for having a personality and a real character. And if young andmark can learn from that individualism than that's great, imo. And I hate, I absolutely despise how sport and perhaps society in general is run on egg-shells, worried about the children. "Oooh, what about the children?". Well I don't give a **** about the children and I sure as hell are not going to let them dictate my life, and when you do, imo, that's when the problems start.

And don't give me this rubbish that sportsmen have to accept the baggage we place on them. Because that is total crap. And if people want to place baggage on sportsmen, then they have every right to chuck it off, which Flintoff has done and which I respect him so much for.

That's why I love Flintoff, he spits in the face of all this bull****, this facade of what's acceptable and whats not, he's his own person and doesn't give a **** about catch-phrases like "responsibility" and the like, and neither do I tbh.

Just my opinion.

 

[pasag]

There are lots of cricketers who drink alcohol so I can't believe I'm having this conversation tbh.

Indeed.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Total overreaction. This posts illustrates, quite frankly, everything that is wrong with sports in today's day and age.

Your post is based on the assumption that sportsmen are supposed to be these mythical heroes, there to inspire the young and be an example to all. Why? That has never made any sense to me. They are there to play cricket and the fact they do, shouldn't impede their rights to do almost anything they want whilst not playing. And to say "...what he did WAS wrong. End of story", why is that? I don't see how it was wrong, I think it was pretty cool. Do you want every cricketer out there a carbon copy of each other? Characters are what make the sport great. Always have always will. But stuff like that is dying out because of stuff like this. If a player steps outside the conservative line, when a player does something out of the ordinary, something that doesn't fit in with the hypocritical standards of society, they are all sudden victim to a MASSIVE overreaction.And it's the overreactions of 90 year old men in ageing homes whining about the degrading moral fabrics of society and the youth of today. It's rubbish.

Flintoff is a dead-set legend. for drinking, for taking out a boat and capsizing it, for having a personality and a real character. And if young andmark can learn from that individualism than that's great, imo. And I hate, I absolutely despise how sport and perhaps society in general is run on egg-shells, worried about the children. "Oooh, what about the children?". Well I don't give a **** about the children and I sure as hell are not going to let them dictate my life, and when you do, imo, that's when the problems start.

And don't give me this rubbish that sportsmen have to accept the baggage we place on them. Because that is total crap. And if people want to place baggage on sportsmen, then they have every right to chuck it off, which Flintoff has done and which I respect him so much for.

That's why I love Flintoff, he spits in the face of all this bull****, this facade of what's acceptable and whats not, he's his own person and doesn't give a **** about catch-phrases like "responsibility" and the like, and neither do I tbh.

Just my opinion.

Sorry I can't agree with any of that.Especially the "Flintoff is a dead set legend as he drinks and capsizes his boat".There is such a thing as taking the biscuit and Flintoff has repeatedly done that IMO.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Total overreaction. This posts illustrates, quite frankly, everything that is wrong with sports in today's day and age.

Your post is based on the assumption that sportsmen are supposed to be these mythical heroes, there to inspire the young and be an example to all. Why? That has never made any sense to me. They are there to play cricket and the fact they do, shouldn't impede their rights to do almost anything they want whilst not playing. And to say "...what he did WAS wrong. End of story", why is that? I don't see how it was wrong, I think it was pretty cool. Do you want every cricketer out there a carbon copy of each other? Characters are what make the sport great. Always have always will. But stuff like that is dying out because of stuff like this. If a player steps outside the conservative line, when a player does something out of the ordinary, something that doesn't fit in with the hypocritical standards of society, they are all sudden victim to a MASSIVE overreaction.And it's the overreactions of 90 year old men in ageing homes whining about the degrading moral fabrics of society and the youth of today. It's rubbish.

Flintoff is a dead-set legend. for drinking, for taking out a boat and capsizing it, for having a personality and a real character. And if young andmark can learn from that individualism than that's great, imo. And I hate, I absolutely despise how sport and perhaps society in general is run on egg-shells, worried about the children. "Oooh, what about the children?". Well I don't give a **** about the children and I sure as hell are not going to let them dictate my life, and when you do, imo, that's when the problems start.

And don't give me this rubbish that sportsmen have to accept the baggage we place on them. Because that is total crap. And if people want to place baggage on sportsmen, then they have every right to chuck it off, which Flintoff has done and which I respect him so much for.

That's why I love Flintoff, he spits in the face of all this bull****, this facade of what's acceptable and whats not, he's his own person and doesn't give a **** about catch-phrases like "responsibility" and the like, and neither do I tbh.

Just my opinion.

Thats your opinion, and i respect that. But I still believe that it WAS wrong. Thats my opinion.

I agree with you that having personality and character, and being different from others and not just a carbon copy is a good thing. But in this case i thing Flintoff went a too far. I wouldn't have minded it if he just went out for a couple, but the fact is he capsized a boat. A boat!! Thats the equivalent of crashing a car when not near water, isn't it? Too far for my mind.

Heck, there is a line.

Despite what you say about the baggage, it IS still there. Flintoff being a sportsmen obviously knows that there is a spotlight on him. And if he still chooses to act like he did, well, thats his fault. He deserved what he got.

On a side note, how old is Andrew Flintoff? 29, right. You think by the age of 29 you would be able to control of your drinking. Poor form for mind. I would be embarrassed just because of not being able to handle the piss.

[hypocrisy]Anywho, hope he had a good time. Would love to go on a bender in the Windies[/hypocrisy]

 

[GIMH]

Total overreaction. This posts illustrates, quite frankly, everything that is wrong with sports in today's day and age.

Your post is based on the assumption that sportsmen are supposed to be these mythical heroes, there to inspire the young and be an example to all. Why? That has never made any sense to me. They are there to play cricket and the fact they do, shouldn't impede their rights to do almost anything they want whilst not playing. And to say "...what he did WAS wrong. End of story", why is that? I don't see how it was wrong, I think it was pretty cool. Do you want every cricketer out there a carbon copy of each other? Characters are what make the sport great. Always have always will. But stuff like that is dying out because of stuff like this. If a player steps outside the conservative line, when a player does something out of the ordinary, something that doesn't fit in with the hypocritical standards of society, they are all sudden victim to a MASSIVE overreaction.And it's the overreactions of 90 year old men in ageing homes whining about the degrading moral fabrics of society and the youth of today. It's rubbish.

Flintoff is a dead-set legend. for drinking, for taking out a boat and capsizing it, for having a personality and a real character. And if young andmark can learn from that individualism than that's great, imo. And I hate, I absolutely despise how sport and perhaps society in general is run on egg-shells, worried about the children. "Oooh, what about the children?". Well I don't give a **** about the children and I sure as hell are not going to let them dictate my life, and when you do, imo, that's when the problems start.

And don't give me this rubbish that sportsmen have to accept the baggage we place on them. Because that is total crap. And if people want to place baggage on sportsmen, then they have every right to chuck it off, which Flintoff has done and which I respect him so much for.

That's why I love Flintoff, he spits in the face of all this bull****, this facade of what's acceptable and whats not, he's his own person and doesn't give a **** about catch-phrases like "responsibility" and the like, and neither do I tbh.

Just my opinion.

I think the timing of his binge was off...that's why I feel he let us down. But I completely agree with the sentiment you express...

 

[Barney Rubble]

Have no problem with Flintoff going out drinking. What I do have a problem with is when he chose to do it. Utterly unprofessional.

 

[Goughy]

As a heavy drinker myself it may be suprising that Im against Flintoff in this situation.

There is a time and a place for everything and some of the responses on here are borderline childish.

His behaviour is nothing short of amateurish and a complete distraction from the purpose of the tour. This isnt some booze cruise where you let your hair down and have fun.

Its a business trip and to get wankered and make a fool of yourself infront of your supporters that have spent a fortune going out there (effectively your client) is embarrassing.

Also with all the recent developments in sports hydration, getting that drunk after a game shows a distinct lack of professionalism.

If he loves a beer then fine (Im sure many of us here do) but to do it when he did and show himself up with clown like behaviour deserves the punishment he got.

Also from reading Border, he says one of the most important things for a captain or someone in a leadership role in a cricket team to do is recognise that position and divorce themselves from being one of the boys. You can't bollock someone or drop them easily if you are out sharing pints with them and acting like a monkey. Its impossible to keep that level of distance and it erodes respect and authority if you act like that. He deserves to have had the vc stripped and with hindsight his appointment as captain for the Ashes looks a mistake.

Also atheltes such as Paul Merson and Paul McGrath illustrate the problems of drinking hard whilst playing and their regrets should be a warning to Flintoff.

I hope Flintoff regrets it and learns that getting pissed is fun but that you have to exercise control over when you do it. After a game and 2 days before the next isnt one of those times.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

As a heavy drinker myself it may be suprising that Im against Flintoff in this situation.

There is a time and a place for everything and some of the responses on here are borderline childish.

His behaviour is nothing short of amateurish and a complete distraction from the purpose of the tour. This isnt some booze cruise where you let your hair down and have fun.

Its a business trip and to get wankered and make a fool of yourself infront of your supporters that have spent a fortune going out there (effectively your client) is embarrassing.

Also with all the recent developments in sports hydration, getting that drunk after a game shows a distinct lack of proffessionalism.

If he loves a beer then fine (Im sure many of us here do) but to do it when he did and show himself up with clown like behaviour deserves the punishment he got.

Also from reading Border, he says one of the most important things for a captain or someone in a leadership role in a cricket team to do is recognise that position and divorce themselves from being one of the boys. You can't bollock someone or drop them easily if you are out sharing pints with them and acting like a monkey. Its impossible to keep that level of distance and it erodes respect and authority if you act like that. He deserves to have had the vc stripped and with hindsight his appointment as captain for the Ashes looks a mistake.

Also atheltes such as Paul Merson and Paul McGrath illustrate the problems of drinking hard whilst playing and their regrets should be a warning to Flintoff.

I hope Flintoff regrets it and learns that getting pissed is fun but that you have to exercise control over when you do it. After a game and 2 days before the next isnt one of those times.

Whole heartedly agree. <----Heavy drinker also

Thats what i wanted to say but unfortunately i lack the skills to say so.

 

[Fiery]

I wasn't defending Flintoff's actions though - I jumped in the argument late when Fiery said that Flintoff should give up drinking altogether.

Where did I say that? In Flintoff's case it's probably something he should consider anyway.

According to Fiery though, drinking burns braincells, so any profession which relies on thought would be effected.

I stand by that.

Eye-poppingly naive stance on the whole issue by pasag, Prince and dontcloseyoureyes tbh

 

[Dick Rockett]

Total overreaction. This posts illustrates, quite frankly, everything that is wrong with sports in today's day and age.

Your post is based on the assumption that sportsmen are supposed to be these mythical heroes, there to inspire the young and be an example to all. Why? That has never made any sense to me. They are there to play cricket and the fact they do, shouldn't impede their rights to do almost anything they want whilst not playing. And to say "...what he did WAS wrong. End of story", why is that? I don't see how it was wrong, I think it was pretty cool. Do you want every cricketer out there a carbon copy of each other? Characters are what make the sport great. Always have always will. But stuff like that is dying out because of stuff like this. If a player steps outside the conservative line, when a player does something out of the ordinary, something that doesn't fit in with the hypocritical standards of society, they are all sudden victim to a MASSIVE overreaction.And it's the overreactions of 90 year old men in ageing homes whining about the degrading moral fabrics of society and the youth of today. It's rubbish.

Flintoff is a dead-set legend. for drinking, for taking out a boat and capsizing it, for having a personality and a real character. And if young andmark can learn from that individualism than that's great, imo. And I hate, I absolutely despise how sport and perhaps society in general is run on egg-shells, worried about the children. "Oooh, what about the children?". Well I don't give a **** about the children and I sure as hell are not going to let them dictate my life, and when you do, imo, that's when the problems start.

And don't give me this rubbish that sportsmen have to accept the baggage we place on them. Because that is total crap. And if people want to place baggage on sportsmen, then they have every right to chuck it off, which Flintoff has done and which I respect him so much for.

That's why I love Flintoff, he spits in the face of all this bull****, this facade of what's acceptable and whats not, he's his own person and doesn't give a **** about catch-phrases like "responsibility" and the like, and neither do I tbh.

Just my opinion.

Haha, great rant saggers. I do agree in general with you - if we as a society are to allow alcohol consumption (and indeed, if the government is going to profit from its sale), then whinging about drunken hijinks, no matter who does it, is hypocritical.

On the other hand, Flintoff's antics were naive and stupid. Surely he should understand that he was never going to get away with this? Let's not beat about the bush: the papers were always going to blow it out of proportion to sell their product, and the team hierarchy was never going to stand for it because of the potential hit to the image of the sponsors and ECB. This controversy is all about money - it has nothing to do with professionalism, being a "role model", or anything else. Basically I reckon that all those who are making an issue out of this incident on those grounds have spent a bit too much time listening to politicians, teachers, and PR tossers. Establishment propaganda, not to be taken seriously, IMO.

I have to disagree with your assessment of Flintoff as a "legend" though. I've never been a fan of drunken buffoonery, and I've always felt like a complete idiot the next day when it's been me acting the goat on the sauce. That's just me though

 

[Bahnz]

The problem in this case, has nothing to do with Flintoff's drinking, and everything to do with the timing of Flintoff's drinking. No one criticised Flintoff when he went on an all night bender with the English cricket time after the Ashes was over. Why? Because the job was done. He'd finished his work as a cricketer, so it was time to party.

In this scenario though, his work has only started. And to go out and get smashed a couple of days before what was a must-win game (no matter who the opposition was) was ridiculously unproffessional. I don't care how much of a legend Flintoff is for nearly drowning himself (Ummm, Pasag, how exactly does that work again?), there is a time and a place for partying. The exact same goes for school or work. You never get pissed before a big exam or meeting.

Flintoff is perfectly capable of keeping his "larger than life" persona without doing things like this. What he did, didn't make him look like an iconic sporting hero. It made him look like an alcoholic moron, and the laughing stock of the cricketing world. Hopefully he'll learn from it, and save the celebrations for after the tournament, from now on.