Group A - India, England, Australia, West Indies

[Anil]

I think Sean may have been referring to your use of 'our' when talking about English players.

tec is british isn't he?

 

[Pratters]

Brilliant!!!!!

Have to ask though... what actually has happened to Laxman? I know he was dropped due to poor form a while ago, has this continued in First Class cricket? Or he is purely and simply out of favour??

I would've thought India would've played him in the group stages at least because he's an Australian specialist Seriously though, India's batting would look a whole lot better with him in it imo. Dravid should definetly go up to bat at 3, followed by Yuvraj, Laxman, Raina, Dhoni, & Pathan?

Laxman has been out of favour. Domestically, he was selected in the three team one day tournament between India, India A and India B but got injured. He is in the South Zone team now for Duleep Trophy which takes place soon. That is FC and not OD cricket though.

 

[SJS]

With all due respect SJS, you said he should play ahead of Harbhajan, and Harbhajan ended up saving our asses in the DLF Cup with runs and wickets and took a man of the match performance.

Not exactly Jono. I did not say Harbhajan SHOULD play ahead of Powar. This is what happened.

What was being discussed was the possible Indian attack and how many bowlers and of them how many spinners/new ball bowlers should be played. Inspite of differences, everyone seemed to agree on one thing, Harbhajan should be the spinner in the attack. I expressed surprise that no one even "thought" of the possibility of Powar being "tried" in the side.

Why doesnt anyone ever THINK that Harbhajan could/should be dropped and Powar tried in his place?

(emphasis added)

Then as a few people responded as to why this wasnt being considered I posted these stats.

Here are their comparative figures for the last ten ODI's played for India.

..............Harbhajan..........Powar

Wkts.............8......................15

Avg.............48.9...................29.5

Str Rate.......62.3..................38.5

Eco Rate.....4.71...................4.58

The idea was not to show that Powar was a better bowler but that he hadnt fared badly AND harbhajan had not been in GREAT form. Again the point being that bigger players than Harbhajan have been left out of teams by all countries, in favour, at times of "lesser" cricketers. To suggest this is not blasphemy. In India we DID drop Kumble not once but many times and even Harbhajan has benefitted from that.

I never said in starting this discussion that Harbhajan should be replaced by Powar since the latter was a better bowler.

We have discussed here the dropping of Tendulkar no less and others. In India we consider dropping of some superstars as a clear no no and I was suggesting that this need not always be the case if there was a reasonable case. Here, I felt was a case for at leats "thinking" of "trying" this out.

Again there was response. Some positive and some ridiculously irrelevant like "You want Powar over Harbhajan. How about Powar over Sreesanth, RP Singh, Agarkar or Munaf?"

I realised that I was getting embroilled in an argument which wasnt going anywhere and decided to clarify what i was actually saying and how it was different from what was being understood/responded to and then "rest my case" as I am afraid one has to do quite often when arguments go off at a tangent or people put words/implications where none exist.

They are both off spinners and I was talking of the "pssibility' of 'considering/discussing' swapping between them.

The fact that Powar is in the team while someone of the caliber of Kumble is not (besides the dact that Kumble would bring variety to spin department) shows that Powar is rated highly.

To talk of medium pacers is to show one's immaturity.

To talk of Harbhajan being india's best bowler is strange if one has to go back and back to find proof of that.

In the whole of 2006, Harbhajan has been struggling.

He took 5 wickets in the first game he played in this calendar year against England at home since then he has been far from impressive.

Powar played two games in March 2004 and never played again till this calendar year. How does talking of Harbhajan's performance of any period before 2006 make a comparison with Powar more relevant?

In the 9 games that both of them have played in together this year, Harbhajan has 10 wkts at 36.6 , a strike rate of 54 while Powar has 15 wickets at 27 each with a strike rate of 34.9 !

I was just suggesting that Powar could be considered too but since you seem to feel that Harbhajan has some kind of permanent hold on an India place I thought I might enlighten you with some information you may have missed.

By the way, forget the statistics, I consider Romesh Powar a better off spinner than Harbhajan Singh and this is based on what I can see. The statistics just happen to be good too.

I know most people disagree with this but thats okay

(Emphasis added)

AND....

I also dont think its going to happen but its worth a try. Powar has played in most of the matches India has played this year and his performance has been consistent.

Bhajji on the other hand is not the destroyer of batting line ups that he used to be.

Bhajjis' advantage is the doosra though his doosra has not been as effective of late. On the other hand his off spin is not causing concern to top batsmen. He is now resorting to flighting less in order to check the runs. This shows a decline for an off spinner.

His flight and trajectory that makes the ball appear to be a tempting half volley that dips at the last minute has ceased to exist. The moment he does decide to flight batsmen are taking him on because the flight is not deceptive and without flight he is not the bowler he was.

The problem with Bhajji is not impossible to rectify but Bhajji is unlikely to go to the masters like Prasanna and take advise (prasanna is on record saying how can I help him unless he asks me) and this is not something Greg Chappell is going to be able to teach him.

When an off spinner loses his 'loop', hed becomes a regular off spinner and murali, Harbhajan (in his earlier daysd) and Saqlain are not just regular spinners.

Lose the loop and a Prasanna becomes a Venktraghvan and thats a HUGE difference.

Harbhajan's droppping can actually do him good if it makes him think he has a problem. But he seems to think that its just that his luck is not favouring him. Thats a tragedy.

Powar has a natural loop. Its what makes him so easy to look at but still so rarely is he collared.

One more thing, Harbhajan is having lots of problems bowling to left handers which is a bad sign not only because off spinners should 'feed' on left handers but also because there is an unusually large number of left handers amongst the top order batsmen in the world today.

Yes Harbhajan did strike a rich haul after that but I never said Habhajan is incapable of ever getting into the wickets again. You dont drop/rest players because they are incapable of EVER turning in another great performance but because bad form does 'sometime' lead to a short period away from the team even if that period is one game. If this wasnt the case, all good players careers would be one long unbroken stint barring injuries.

One final word. While I never said nor believe Powar is a better bowler. I do think that as of today Powar is a better off spinner than Harbhajan who is still a better bowler on account of his greater variation in particular the doosra.

Harbhajan was a classical off spinner when he started. Watch the Aussie tour to India in 2001 and you will see what I mean. Even without the doosra his mastery of the classical off spinners art and his tantalising flight made him such a devastating bowler. However as he has evolved and played more and more one day cricket he has become a more defensive bowler than he started as and bowls that few inches shorter, throws the ball up that little lower and releases it that wee bit later which makes the "loop" disappear. But he retains the accuracy to keep the batsmen from attacking him except when he bowls halfvolleys or short pitched or they have to take the chance of coming out of the crease to take him on the half volley.

A classical off spinner makes the batsmen think every ball is a half volley and he goes for it even from within the creas finding at the last minute (sometimes too late) that the ball is dropping suddenly. And the batsman either goes through with the shot and the ball misses bat and passes through bat and pad, or he mi***** and sends a return catch or he overbalances a bit as he finds the ball is not there and his foot goes over the popping crease and so on. These are the classical off spinners dismissals and they are seen less and less from Bhajji.

And thats the difference between Powar and Harnhajan, Prasanna and Harbhajan and, I dare say, between the early Harbhajan and the Harbhajan of today.

The stats dont say what I am saying here. I used them just to show that Harbhajan was not at his BEST so "considering" resting him wasnt such a massive no-no.

 

[Nate]

I swear SJS, you`re a flame-baiting moron.

 

[SJS]

Brilliant!!!!!

Have to ask though... what actually has happened to Laxman? I know he was dropped due to poor form a while ago, has this continued in First Class cricket? Or he is purely and simply out of favour??

I would've thought India would've played him in the group stages at least because he's an Australian specialist Seriously though, India's batting would look a whole lot better with him in it imo. Dravid should definetly go up to bat at 3, followed by Yuvraj, Laxman, Raina, Dhoni, & Pathan?

When a player is considered "dispensable" (read is-without-Godfather) any excuse will be used to keep him out. In the case of Laxman the excuse used today is his fielding. Yes he is no Yuvi, Kaif or Raina in the field but nor is Sachin and with his injuries he is clearly not the "thrower" that he was once. I am not suggesting for a minute that Laxman takes priority over Sachin but just to show how goal posts are placed depending upon what results one is looking for.

If India can have a keeper of the caliber of Dhoni because he is such a "great" (not my description of him) batsman then surely Laxman would be manning less critical areas on the field and his sleep fielding is impeccable (where Sachin is going to be increasingly seen) and in the outfield he is safe and secure (far better than the former skipper ever was) without ever being spectacular.

We have to measureall aspects of the teams needs and surely batting (and bowling) do not take a lesser importance in a world where fielding is not the negelcted skill it used to be.

As for the order with Laxman. I would even consider Laxman at three with Yuvraj at four and Dravid at five. The four and five can be interchanged depending upon number of by which the sec ond wicket falls and whether wqe are chasing (and the size of the target) or setting a target.

I am not convinced that we should experiment with the first three positions (except the rare case for very specific reasons) and the 4th to 6th should br flexibe.

I would feel so much more confident of Indias chances if the eleven read

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Laxman
Yuvraj
Dravid
Dhoni
Irfan
Powar/Kumble (WHY NOT??)
Harbhajan
Munaf
THIRD medium pacer.​

 

[SJS]

I swear SJS, you`re a flame-baiting moron.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Johnners]

When a player is considered "dispensable" (read is-without-Godfather) any excuse will be used to keep him out. In the case of Laxman the excuse used today is his fielding. Yes he is no Yuvi, Kaif or Raina in the field but nor is Sachin and with his injuries he is clearly not the "thrower" that he was once. I am not suggesting for a minute that Laxman takes priority over Sachin but just to show how goal posts are placed depending upon what results one is looking for.

If India can have a keeper of the caliber of Dhoni because he is such a "great" (not my description of him) batsman then surely Laxman would be manning less critical areas on the field and his sleep fielding is impeccable (where Sachin is going to be increasingly seen) and in the outfield he is safe and secure (far better than the former skipper ever was) without ever being spectacular.

We have to measureall aspects of the teams needs and surely batting (and bowling) do not take a lesser importance in a world where fielding is not the negelcted skill it used to be.

As for the order with Laxman. I would even consider Laxman at three with Yuvraj at four and Dravid at five. The four and five can be interchanged depending upon number of by which the sec ond wicket falls and whether wqe are chasing (and the size of the target) or setting a target.

I am not convinced that we should experiment with the first three positions (except the rare case for very specific reasons) and the 4th to 6th should br flexibe.

I would feel so much more confident of Indias chances if the eleven read

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Laxman
Yuvraj
Dravid
Dhoni
Irfan
Powar/Kumble (WHY NOT??)
Harbhajan
Munaf
THIRD medium pacer.​

Fair point with Dravid at 5, if your looking for a flyer he's in all due respect, not the man you want at 3, but then i don't see Laxman as being that man either. However that being said, you should always go into a match expecting the best, and by doing that, you would expect that Sehwag/Tendulkar would give you the flyer of a start, without falling early (1st 3/4 overs). With that in mind, i would rather have Dravid at 3 than VVS. He has a stronger technique than VVS, and imo would be a far safer option if trying to stop a collapse, and he can rotate the strike and anchor the innings. Whereas at 5, theres every chance he could come in at the start of the "Slog Overs" something if i was an Indian fan, i'd much rather see Yuvi, Raina, Pathan & Dhoni doing.

I'd compare Laxman with Damien Martyn as to the style of their play, which, when i think about it more in Laxman's case, is probably best suited at 4 like marto.

With that i mind i would have the order:

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Dravid
Laxman
Yuvraj
Raina/Dhoni (depending on the bowling attack)
Dhoni/Pathan (again depending on the bowling attack)
Pathan

 

[SJS]

Fair point with Dravid at 5, if your looking for a flyer he's in all due respect, not the man you want at 3, but then i don't see Laxman as being that man either. However that being said, you should always go into a match expecting the best, and by doing that, you would expect that Sehwag/Tendulkar would give you the flyer of a start, without falling early (1st 3/4 overs). With that in mind, i would rather have Dravid at 3 than VVS. He has a stronger technique than VVS, and imo would be a far safer option if trying to stop a collapse, and he can rotate the strike and anchor the innings. Whereas at 5, theres every chance he could come in at the start of the "Slog Overs" something if i was an Indian fan, i'd much rather see Yuvi, Raina, Pathan & Dhoni doing.

I'd compare Laxman with Damien Martyn as to the style of their play, which, when i think about it more in Laxman's case, is probably best suited at 4 like marto.

With that i mind i would have the order:

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Dravid
Laxman
Yuvraj
Raina/Dhoni (depending on the bowling attack)
Dhoni/Pathan (again depending on the bowling attack)
Pathan

There is some merit in what you say.

My problem with Dravid is that he needs quite some time to open up. Once he does he will invariably catch up in the run rate. In recent years his long innings in ODI's have been made with excellent strike rates. The problem comes when he gets out in the 20's or 30's. He has invariably consumed a lot of deliveries by then.

Laxman is not ideal number three and four would be perfect but there isnt another name available. Yuvi is suspect against the short quick stuff. Dhoni, if he could understand that he is a powerful enough stroke player without having to resort to theatrics has the game to play at that position but he still hasnt shown that he has the head !

Dravid and Laxman are the only choices really for the 3 and 4 spots. Lets compromise. If a wicket falls early we send in Dravid and if we get a good start we send Laxman. If we have a record opening partnership we send Dhoni and Yuvi

 

[Poker Boy]

About England - it doesn't matter who you pick to bowl whrn you only make 125! Read's shot was PATHETIC - at 107-6 you bat out the overs. We wasted 13 overs yesterday - even at 4 an over that would have got them 52 more runs. You might defend 170 or 180 -125 gives you NO CHANCE.I'd drop Mahmood so that Australia don't get a pre-Ashes look at him and Harmison must be first-change -he can't control the new white ball so give him the role Allan Donald had for SA.

 

[Johnners]

There is some merit in what you say.

My problem with Dravid is that he needs quite some time to open up. Once he does he will invariably catch up in the run rate. In recent years his long innings in ODI's have been made with excellent strike rates. The problem comes when he gets out in the 20's or 30's. He has invariably consumed a lot of deliveries by then.

Laxman is not ideal number three and four would be perfect but there isnt another name available. Yuvi is suspect against the short quick stuff. Dhoni, if he could understand that he is a powerful enough stroke player without having to resort to theatrics has the game to play at that position but he still hasnt shown that he has the head !

Dravid and Laxman are the only choices really for the 3 and 4 spots. Lets compromise. If a wicket falls early we send in Dravid and if we get a good start we send Laxman. If we have a record opening partnership we send Dhoni and Yuvi

Or if India's playing Australia we don't mind if you put Irfan back at 3

 

[Great Birtannia]

Dravid and Laxman are the only choices really for the 3 and 4 spots. Lets compromise. If a wicket falls early we send in Dravid and if we get a good start we send Laxman. If we have a record opening partnership we send Dhoni and Yuvi

I know this is a blasphemous suggestion but have India ever used Tendulkar at three. Sehwag is a flakey one day player but when he is on he is just as damaging as Sachin and can get you off to a flyer with the little master still in the sheds to bat through the middle overs. If Sehwag gets out cheaply, no worries, you still have Tendulkar to come in and flay the bowlers in the first 15/20 overs as usual. It throws up the need for a new opener, perhaps Gambhir? I'm not an expert on Indian FC cricket, but with Tendulkar at 3 and Dravid at 4 India's batting line up would have a much stronger backbone. If a Lee or McGrath gets rid of Tendulkar early with the new ball a collapse is very much on the cards with the current batting order.

Or if India's playing Australia we don't mind if you put Irfan back at 3

Pathan at #3 is a very, err, different approach from an Australian's eyes. Ok he can strike a ball when in good touch with the bat but having a look at his stats in all forms of cricket:

Tests - 27.83
ODIs - 26.13
FC - 24.91
List A - 23.44

Compare that to Brad Hogg

ODIs - 21.03
FC - 34.66
List A - 27.29

Obviously Pathan has the potential to improve his batting but I can't imagine Australia even thinking about playing someone like Hogg at #3.

 

[Turbinator]

Pathan at #3 is a very, err, different approach from an Australian's eyes. Ok he can strike a ball when in good touch with the bat but having a look at his stats in all forms of cricket:

Tests - 27.83
ODIs - 26.13
FC - 24.91
List A - 23.44

Compare that to Brad Hogg

ODIs - 21.03
FC - 34.66
List A - 27.29

Obviously Pathan has the potential to improve his batting but I can't imagine Australia even thinking about playing someone like Hogg at #3.

Really? Funny how your Australian Greg Chappel is the one who came up with that idea.

 

[Great Birtannia]

Make it an Australian supporters eyes then, happy? I hope we don't appoint him as Buchanan's successor.

 

[Turbinator]

Make it an Australian supporters eyes then, happy? I hope we don't appoint him as Buchanan's successor.

I hope you guys do appoint him so that your period of dominance can finally end.

 

[R_D]

Sachin was playing in middle order just before the last world cup with Ganguly and Sehwag opening. Potentially it is a good idea putting him the middle order but Sachin didn't really fair that well in middle order.
He was elevated back to opening position and scoring runs at free will again. I think he prefers to open as well. but potentially if we could get Sehwag in middle order and have Sehwag andGambhir or someone else opening. It would make the middle order look more solid. At the moment the middle order doesn't look very solid and are too often prone to collapses.

 

[Turbinator]

Sehwag
Tendulkar
Dravid
Yuvraj
Kaif
Mongia
Dhoni
Pathan
Agarkar
Harbhajan
Munaf

This lineup looks quite strong to me. I didn't include Powar in because I really think Sehwag and Mongia together can do a pretty decent job. Didn't include Raina either, I don't know why people have hyped him up so much, other than his fielding nothing else has really been that special. I think Kaif along with Yuvraj can really finish off the games in style. Our middle order does look weak because usually we have a specialist opener like Gambhir. However, it is only a matter of time before Dhoni and Kaif get back into form. We chased totals so well because every time Dhoni use to come out at the end stage, he made a quick fire 40/50 and won us the game.

 

[Jono]

In response to Great Brittania's mention of Tendulkar possibly coming in at 3 (I'd use the quote function, but I'm in an extremely lazy mood), Sachin has been used at 4 and it didn't work too well. I understand your argument regarding Sachin at 3, but he's the greatest opener in the history of ODI cricket, so I think so late in his career its in India's best interests to leave him there.

Regarding the topic of Laxman coming back in the ODI team, I'd be all for it. I reckon he, Raina and Kaif should be challenging for the one spot, with Gambhir challenging Sehwag with the opening position as well. Here's my ideal ODI team:

Sachin
Sehwag/Gambhir
Laxman/Kaif/Raina (If Raina plays, I'd slot Dravid at 3 and Raina later in the order)
Yuvraj
*Dravid
+Dhoni
Pathan
Powar
Harbhajan
Agarkar/Munaf Patel/Sreesanth
Agarkar/Munaf Patel/Sreesanth

I'd like Yuvraj to be our permanent number 4 from now on. Until his recent mini-form slump he'd been ridiculously brilliant (top 5 ODI batsmen in the world at that time IMO) and I reckon him knowing he's permanently at 4 would do him some good.

 

[sideshowtim]

Match starts in under an hour.

C'mon Aussie C'mon

 

[adharcric]

I hope the Aussies trash WI today.

 

[Perm]

I'm hoping Gilchrist has a big game so I can see him dominate the bowling when I watch the highlights tomorrow, hope Australia have a big win here.