Migara
International Coach
yeah, yeah, they won at whining. Great observation.That's not how you spell winners.
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Greatest Test Cricketer Ever (from 1900)
- Thread starter kyear2
- Start date
PlayerComparisons
International Vice-Captain
kyear2
International Coach
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's not horribly inconceivable. I respectfully disagree, and also disagree with his ball tampering take, but will leave it at that.
But hey no one would agree with my top 5 either.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Who are they again??
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shortpitched713
International Captain
I have no idea why there's a consensus that Sobers is a greater all-rounder than Imran, and I'm a huge Sobers fan. Both literally did it all for their countries, but from opposite ends of the bowling/batting spectrum. I don't see how you could possibly compare the two. And if we're being fair, one would end up with roughly half the criteria / disciplines having an advantage. For me the captaincy / fielding would balance each other out.
kyear2
International Coach
I would like to have a conversation with regards to this without the normal accusations.
One could say
Batting - Sobers
Bowling - Imran
Fielding - Sobers
Captaincy - Imran
But that solves nothing and is a lazy way out.
Primary skill
Everyone's ranking will be different but for me. Sobers is my 3rd ranked batsman of all time and definitely in the tier of best after Bradman. I have Imran ranked as 6th best pacer (and somewhere between 6th and 8th overall including the spinners) ever, and just outside of my top tier of bowlers. Only one is also able to walk into an all time team based on their primary skill alone. Sobers for me here..
Secondary skill
I don't believe either was that great here to be honest. Imran was a below average batsman, but a very good lower order batsman. Sobers was likewise a below average bowler, but probably the best 5th option to have played the game. One edge to Sobers was that he could bowl fast, swinging fast medium, spin and chinamen, he also was called to fill every role from opening the bowling to being the stock bowler. Imran also went as high up as 6, though mainly (from memory) later in his career. Finally, of Imran's 7 hundreds none were game winning, infact only one came in a winning effort and none in the 4th innings. Sobers, though not much better had 3 (or 4) match winning 5 wicket hauls. Between the versatility and more match winning efforts I give this one to Sobers as well.
Tertiary skill
It can be argued that Sobers was the best close fielder / catcher ever. He was in that absolute upper echelon on slip fielders with the likes of Hammond, Simpson, Waugh, Hooper, Chappell etc. he was equally brilliant at leg slip and short to Gibbs. It's often said Imran was a great leader of men and that certainly was one of the 3 pillars of what makes a great captain. Ability to lead and inspire, the others being win / loss record and being great tactically. I believe his w/l record would have been more than decent especially considering that he competed credibly against the best team of the era. Tactically he wasn't quite in the elite class, and while he instilled discipline, the team was hardly world class in the field. Think everyone would agree that captaincy is harder to quantify while being quite subjective and from what I have read from Smali over the years, Javed would have been the primary tactician. While both were respectively revered, taking everything into account I have to go Sobers.
Intangibles
First the positives, Both were match winners, both were icons and respected by all. They are universally regarded as the best bowling and batting all rounders respectively.
With regards to the negatives. Sobers played in the professional era, but wasn't nearly as professional as he should have been. With modern disciple and focus God knows what he could have been without the partying and other liberties. He also captained himself poorly as a bowler and added to his own workload. As much as it's deflected, Imran had the shroud of tampering to deal with, and by his own admission was tired of the allegations of beneficial home umpires, but he also was instrumental to the development and advancement of Pakistan cricket and was noted as a mentor to the 2 W's.
Summary
They were both champions, and brilliant in their primary roles. Sobers however was a unanimous choice to the Cricinfo all time team and behind only Bradman with regards to voted for cricketers of the century. And we're not taking 15 or 20 votes in a odd voting system where biases can be felt. He got 90 of 100 votes. As great as both were, and they were superb, there isn't much of a doubt who the greatest all rounder was, as was supported by Bradman himself and echoed by the likes of Miller, Chappell etc.
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kyear2
International Coach
I have a firm top 3 of
Sobers
Bradman
Marshall
After that a changing cast of characters, any of....
Listing by country
McGrath
Gilchrist
Warne
Hobbs
Tendulkar
Imran
Richards
Then
Hammond
Hutton
Hadlee
Kallis
Steyn
Muralitharan
Ambrose
Lara
Really don't like rankings, really hard to compare bowers to batsmen to all rounders etc. McGrath is likely also in the top 5 btw.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Is Sobers above Bradman, or you rate those 3 the same??
ashley bach
Cricketer Of The Year
Rodney Redmond.
kyear2
International Coach
I just think those 3 are in a league of their own, and for various reasons. But think so, yeah. Bradman said it, Keith Miller said it, Sobers was the greatest cricketer ever. Believe I also saw a discussion between Procter and Chappelli, but don't want to swear, because Procter may have just been talking about the greatest all rounder.
A top 3 batsman who offers unparalleled versatility with the ball who's also an elite 2nd slip. How does one beat that?
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I mean, I guess that's fine.... It's just Bradman's record, IMO, just places him in a totally different league than any other batsman; and Sobers being an undisputed Top 4 bat in my book, still places a small but significant gap between the two.
kyear2
International Coach
I agree to a certain extent. I also believe Bradman is in a class of his own as a batsman. Do I believe he would have averaged that same in the '80's or 90's, no. So I don't believe he's twice as good as every other batsman. That's controversial, and no one would agree, but that's always been my stance. Again, no doubt he's the GOAT batsman, and by distance, so not disputing that. He was had the perfect storm and fully took advantage, and that's amazing.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I actually also don't believe Don would had averaged 99.94 in the 80s or 90s, but around 80-85 (mainly based on his average against England and to a certain extent West Indies). Still, that's enough for me to place him comfortably ahead of Sobers as a batsman and Sobers' bowling isn't cutting it enough for me.
kyear2
International Coach
That's fair.
Remember you're comparing Martindale and Constantine to the quartet then Marshall, Ambrose and co. Not to add what Pakistan, NZ, SA had to offer in those 2 decades. And Larwood aside in one series, name the great comparable pacers he faced.
Again, Bradman is the best, and no contest, period. Just applying some context.
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
Bradman probably was being humble about it. Would have been arrogant if he said it was him. Knowing about Bradman, he definitely knew it.
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
If anyone since 90s average anything over 70, dare I say around 66-67 ish for their 20 year odd career, he retires as the best player ever excluding Bradman. Just my opinion of course but if someone averages 67-70 ish and is so far above everyone since Bradman, idk if secondary skills counts for anything at all. Unless someone makes any team in history through their secondary skills, which ofc no one has been anything close at all.
kyear2
International Coach
And that's completely fair and a much more accepted stance than mine.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
One other thing, Bradman wasn't probably the best in grading players..... I mean, Bradman's All Time XI:
Arthur Morris
Barry Richards
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Don Tallon
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee
Alec Bedser
Bill O'Reilly
Clarrie Grimmett
I think the middle order is perfect; but other than that.... Not the best players nor combination, I think atleast.
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
12th Man: Walter Hammond. Viv just misses out due to Walter being able to bowl.
Bradman was a garbage as a person anyway. The most interesting thing about the team actually is him picking Grimmett. Especially considering his beef with Grum to go with Warne already well established and his great admiration for Warne.
Despite, being Grimmett fan, I would have Warne ahead but definitely worth something pointing at.