Graham Thorpe vs Kevin Pietersen

[OverratedSanity]

I really don't think he was, considering how often he would get to 50-80 looking utterly serene, then give his wicket away. This is when he was averaging in the 50s.

If he had that mental ruthlessness, he'd be a legend. The captaincy has definitely been a factor sure, but probably a bunch of different pressures have contributed to him not quite reaching his potential.

He was also getting those starts and reaching 50 at an extremely high, probably unsustainable rate though. I think his rate of 50+ scores per innings at that point was higher than a lot of the greatest players to have ever played the game, with obviously a much lower conversion rate. The recent decline may just be the stats sorting themselves out over a bigger sample because I honestly dont see much difference in his actual batting. He plays a lot of those pushes down the ground and dabs behind the wicket early in the innings to which he's now actually getting out instead of it paying off at the rate that it was during his initial years.

He might actually be an super-charged verison of Ajinkya Rahane, whose trajectory has been similar (although a little more extreme in its dip recently). He's always been a batsman who plays lots of attacking shots early on in his innings, and loves to punch square of the wicket. Early in his career, he was averaging comfortably 50+ but there was some reasonable critique at the time that the starts of a lot of his innings lacked the traidtionally solid looking batting you'd expect from a batsman with a 50+ average. Eventually it caught up with him.

Amidst all this its also sometimes easy to forget that root's still really ****ing good though.

 

[wpdavid]

That's the one...the next best score was 17. And he made 119*...and then I remember that Hoggard hattrick...oh what a series that was.

It was a vastly under-rated English performance. Lots of the usual talk about our hosts being rubbish, but they're never easy at home, their middle order (3 to 5) were terrific and their bowlers were usually threatening. It's still the only time we've won over there since the late 1960s.

 

[Pothas]

Was he really less talented or was he just a bit weird looking shot maker? He made an immediate impact as a young lad. Classic high SR = talented logic.

Pietersen also had the more consistent career in many ways. For me Cook is slightly ahead because of those ridiculous away series in Australia and India. Of course in both of those Pietersen played a brilliant innings but Cook defined the series.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

That's the one...the next best score was 17. And he made 119*...and then I remember that Hoggard hattrick...oh what a series that was.

also Harmison took a truckload of wickets in that series iirc

 

[Flem274*]

put a better than competent (not denly or crawley) #3 ahead of root and watch the runs flow.

he's a little loose, like kohli. kohli for example loves to chase a wide one early on so that issue would be exacerbated at 10/1. put pujara ahead of root and he'd be golden before he got to his dreaded 80*.

this isn't a root > kohli post, i needed an example of another world class player whose weaknesses are magnified by coming in early.

 

[harsh.ag]

Remember this 2nd test in 2004 on England's tour of South Africa. Great fightback by England in the second innings and a Thorpe century facing an old Pollock and a young Steyn.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...2nd-test-england-tour-of-south-africa-2004-05

A young ABdV coming in at #8 as keeper-bat in the fourth innings to save SA the blushes.

 

[GIMH]

also Harmison took a truckload of wickets in that series iirc

The Harmison reputation was basically built there. Took 7-12 one innings.

 

[ImpatientLime]

root will finish with a sub 45 average

between around 14-18 he always looked in the sublime touch, sort of guy who would come out when all other batsman were struggling to time one but he would middle everything. that is when he should have been cashing in and putting up eye watering numbers but he never did for the reasons mentioned above. being a little looser than real greats, the impact of the odi game on his test game, captaincy etc.

 

[wpdavid]

The Harmison reputation was basically built there. Took 7-12 one innings.

I think that was the series when he'd prepared by training with Newcastle Utd, so he was fitter than at any other time in his career. It was certainly the series when we saw Hoggard, Harmison, Jones and Flintoff in the same side. Fast forward a few months and we saw Jones reversing it for the first time at home to NZ. Happy days.

 

[Uppercut]

Pietersen also had the more consistent career in many ways. For me Cook is slightly ahead because of those ridiculous away series in Australia and India. Of course in both of those Pietersen played a brilliant innings but Cook defined the series.

I think Cook was crazy talented. Could cut and pull off any length. When he put away the drive completely, as he did at for a few years at his peak, he just never got out.

Would be interesting to have seen him face the likes of Cummins and Wagner at his best. For most of his career there weren't really any top-class back-of-a-length bowlers.

 

[vcs]

I think Root effortlessly made 50+ scores in a wide variety of conditions upto the point when he took over the captaincy. I don't think his current slump is him reverting to the mean. He did seem to throw away his wicket in a lot of dumb ways back then. But you could bank on him usually coming in and looking a million dollars till he got to 65 or so.

Now a few technical issues and mental doubts seem to have crept into his game, so he doesn't get off to as many starts as he did back then, hence the averaging "only" 42 or whatever it is.

 

[MW1304]

I think Cook was crazy talented. Could cut and pull off any length. When he put away the drive completely, as he did at for a few years at his peak, he just never got out.

Would be interesting to have seen him face the likes of Cummins and Wagner at his best. For most of his career there weren't really any top-class back-of-a-length bowlers.

Yeah Morkel troubled him a lot but he wasn't quite in the top class. Ishant too, I think.

Honestly though, he'd still get buckets of runs against these guys on his day. I think the ungodly accurate, slightly full-of-a-length but not necessarily outright quick guys troubled him the most. Making him come forward was always the key.

 

[harsh.ag]

Cook wasn't crazy talented. Didn't have the eye or the technique for that to be said.

 

[MW1304]

It's also his game though. He gets such a large proportion of his runs square or even behind square offside of the wicket with little nudges and dabs (it's what makes him such an exceptional but underrated ODI stalwart) but those always bring the outside edge into play.

I don't think this style of game makes it impossible to be ATG standard though. He's always had similar scoring shots/zones to Dravid for instance. It's just about choosing when to use the shot and when to shelve it.

He would also be getting out in more innocuous ways than slashing at one too close to him during this time. Shot selection has often been what's cost him.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Cook was obviously a talented player, but his game didn't have the gymnastic balletics of Pietersen's. One never saw a flamingo whip from Cook.

He seemed to approach his batting as a task to be endured, rather than an opportunity to stamp his genius on the opposition like KP did. Cook put a uniquely (for his era) high price on his wicket; the last bombardier standing firm at Rourke's Drift, repelling wave after wave of attacking Zulus, as all around him his comrades fell, nicking those spears to the slips.

The none-more English roundhead to the South African cavalier, if you will.

 

[wpdavid]

By 2010, Pietersen had become adept at cashing in when the going was easy but not contributing much when times were tougher. That winter's Ashes was the extreme example; a double hundred on Days 2 & 3 at Adelaide after we'd bowled them out cheaply, but not much of note elsewhere. It's already been said, but Cook's contributions on that tour were in a different league. I suppose that India 2012 was the major exception.

 

[vcs]

By 2010, Pietersen had become adept at cashing in when the going was easy but not contributing much when times were tougher. That winter's Ashes was the extreme example; a double hundred on Days 2 & 3 at Adelaide after we'd bowled them out cheaply, but not much of note elsewhere. It's already been said, but Cook's contributions on that tour were in a different league. I suppose that India 2012 was the major exception.

Nah, if anything, it was the other way around. England's batting was very solid with Trott, Bell, Prior all becoming very consistent around that period and Pietersen usually only seemed to turn up when the rest were struggling. He made 3 centuries in 2002 - in SL, Headingley and the famous Mumbai ton and he seemed to be batting on a different pitch in all those cases (though guys like Cook were probably more prolific overall). All 3 were amazing knocks.

 

[wpdavid]

Nah, if anything, it was the other way around. England's batting was very solid with Trott, Bell, Prior all becoming very consistent around that period and Pietersen usually only seemed to turn up when the rest were struggling. He made 3 centuries in 2002 - in SL, Headingley and the famous Mumbai ton and he seemed to be batting on a different pitch in all those cases (though guys like Cook were probably more prolific overall). All 3 were amazing knocks.

I'd forgotten the SL knock tbh. And the SA innings at Headingly's a fair call. But I think the bigger picture's slightly different to what you described. Certainly in the 2010/11 Ashes, anyway. But I wouldn't want to over-state my point either, it was probably not 100% spot on.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Nah, if anything, it was the other way around. England's batting was very solid with Trott, Bell, Prior all becoming very consistent around that period and Pietersen usually only seemed to turn up when the rest were struggling. He made 3 centuries in 2002 - in SL, Headingley and the famous Mumbai ton and he seemed to be batting on a different pitch in all those cases (though guys like Cook were probably more prolific overall). All 3 were amazing knocks.

those were 3 ATG knocks, in difficult conditions in the space of about 6 months.

the only guy of his era who had a ceiling like his imo was michael clarke. both capable of the most absurd innings where they made atg bowlers look village and minefields look like roads.

 

[harsh.ag]