Graham Gooch in ODIS?

[Mard]

How do you rate Graham Gooch in ODIS?

 

[Richard]

Very possibly England's best batsman of the "old" ODI era (ie, 1970s and 1980s).

And obviously totally incomparable to the Knights, Hicks, Fairbrothers etc. as they simply played a different game.

 

[krkode]

Hmm, I never realized how good a record Fairbrother had.

Unfortunately can't comment on Gooch. Never saw him play.

 

[Richard]

I only ever watched him bat in a ODI once myself - the 1991/92 WC final.

Still know he was good though.

And yeah, Fairbrother - super ODI batsman. England's third-best of the modern era for mine, behind Knight and Hick.

 

[aussie]

Very possibly England's best batsman of the "old" ODI era (ie, 1970s and 1980s).

And obviously totally incomparable to the Knights, Hicks, Fairbrothers etc. as they simply played a different game.

Yea he played a different game, but i think if he had played for most of the 90s he definately could have adapted to how the game had evolved.

Plus you got to have him in an All-time ENG ODI XI:

Trescothick
Gooch
Knight
KP
Lamb
Botham
Flintoff
Stewart
Gough
Underwood/Emburey
Caddick

hmmm, damn better than i thought..

 

[Richard]

I don't have anyone in any all-time ODI XIs. Gooch might well have been able to adapt to the ODI game they played in the 1990s but I think it's as pointless hypothesising as it is about whether WG Grace and George Lohmann would've been the best batsman and best bowler of their time had they played in the 1970s. Of course it's quite possible that they would've been, but the game they played was unspeakably different from the one that was played later, and had they played the exact same game they played in their day they'd not have been playing what had come to be recognised as cricket, never mind being any good at it.

Gooch would be the first name on my teamsheet for a 1970s\80s England ODI XI and nothing else. I don't want to compare him with Nick Knight, Marcus Trescothick or anyone else, because the expectations were completely and totally different.

 

[Mard]

I can't believe how good England were in Odi's in the 70's, 80's and even most of 90's. Their record in 2000's is totally opposite.

 

[Richard]

England weren't really that good at ODIs in the 1990s. Better than they have been since 2000/01, yeah, undoubtedly, muchly so. But they were nowhere near the pack-leaders-or-close-to that they had been in the 1970s and 1980s.

A greater influx of teams of course will have played its part in that - in the '70s and '80s there was just England, West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka - and the latter three took their time, considerably, to become particularly good. In the '90s there was the above plus South Africa and Zimbabwe. AND England were starting to fall behind as their domestic cricket remained the same rather than moving to mirror what other countries were turning ODIs into.

 

[zaremba]

A fine player. Knocked hosts India out of the 1988 World Cup with a century in the semi-final, and England's most reliable batsman in the 80s and early 90s. Not a pretty player to watch but had terrific power in a Trescothickian sort of way, and for a time in the early 90s was arguably the best batsman in the world.

Treated Gower poorly though for which, for me, he will never be forgiven

 

[Goughy]

A fine ODI player and in domestic limited over cricket he was a force of nature.

 

[Richard]

A fine player. Knocked hosts India out of the 1988 World Cup with a century in the semi-final, and England's most reliable batsman in the 80s and early 90s. Not a pretty player to watch but had terrific power in a Trescothickian sort of way, and for a time in the early 90s was arguably the best batsman in the world.

Treated Gower poorly though for which, for me, he will never be forgiven

Only treated Gower poorly in Tests, TBF.

Gooch as a captain was a funny one. Tactically he was somewhere in the middle - not good, not poor. As a man-manager of those (like Gower) whose outlook was completely different to his, he was terrible. As a man-manager of those with similar outlooks, however, he was terrific. An inspiration to two, maybe even three, generations of cricketers. Nasser Hussain, who was twice my age just a few years ago, counted him as a hero every bit as much as I did. And someone who backed those who thought like him to the hilt.

 

[pskov]

Nasser Hussain in his autobiography makes it clear that he admires Gooch but thought he just couldn't relate to certain individuals and thus that he was a poor coach/captain, without ever really saying it directly because he has too much respect for him.

 

[zaremba]

Only treated Gower poorly in Tests, TBF.

Not sure I can distinguish, along Test and ODI lines, those parts of Gooch that I forgive and those that I don't. He brought Gower's career to a premature end and that is a crime against cricket.

Only treated Gower poorly in Tests, TBF.

Gooch as a captain was a funny one. Tactically he was somewhere in the middle - not good, not poor. As a man-manager of those (like Gower) whose outlook was completely different to his, he was terrible. As a man-manager of those with similar outlooks, however, he was terrific. An inspiration to two, maybe even three, generations of cricketers. Nasser Hussain, who was twice my age just a few years ago, counted him as a hero every bit as much as I did. And someone who backed those who thought like him to the hilt.

Hussain grew up with Gower as a hero. Probably not too quick to castigate Gooch for dropping him, though, because the beneficiary of that dropping was, er, Nasser Hussain.

 

[Richard]

Nasser Hussain in his autobiography makes it clear that he admires Gooch but thought he just couldn't relate to certain individuals and thus that he was a poor coach/captain, without ever really saying it directly because he has too much respect for him.

Yeah that's precisely what I mean. Atherton touches on it in his book too, and it's indicative of the difference in writing skill (Hussain's is ghosted) that Atherton conveys it far better in a much shorter piece on Gooch than Hussain does.

Gooch was brilliant for young guys like Atherton and Hussain who he could mould to fit his own ideals of how to make yourself as a cricketer. He was hopeless at realising that some people (like David Gower) are actually best-served by taking a totally different attitude to himself.

Hussain's greatest skill as a leader was his ability to recognise how to bring out the best in so many different personalities. And he was damn good at field-placings as well.

 

[Richard]

Not sure I can distinguish, along Test and ODI lines, those parts of Gooch that I forgive and those that I don't. He brought Gower's career to a premature end and that is a crime against cricket.

Well TBH I only think he brought Gower's Test career to a premature end. That's a crying shame, of course it is, and Gooch's team would've been more successful still had he managed to accommodate the likes of Gower.

Hussain grew up with Gower as a hero. Probably not too quick to castigate Gooch for dropping him, though, because the beneficiary of that dropping was, er, Nasser Hussain.

Hmm, in 1990 maybe, but Gower returned to the side, Hussain exited, and Hussain only got in properly after the axing of another of Gower's ilk (but a much more fervent Gooch disciple), Robin Smith.

Of Gower's ilk in that his career was ended prematurely when the player still had much to offer, that is.

 

[Anil]

gooch was an excellent odi player...excelled against pace, not so good against spin, but he did adapt successfully to spinning conditions as well, remember him sweeping maninder singh(i think?) to oblivion in the 1987 wc semifinals...

 

[zaremba]

Hmm, in 1990 maybe, but Gower returned to the side, Hussain exited, and Hussain only got in properly after the axing of another of Gower's ilk (but a much more fervent Gooch disciple), Robin Smith.

Hussain's Test debut came in Feb 1990 when he was a direct replacement to David Gower - still at that point England's best batsman - in the team touring the West Indies. I clearly recall Hussain's interview in a cricket magazine at the time when he said he had grown up hero-worshipping Gower and he was now replacing him in the team.

God, I was angry that Gower was dropped for that tour.

Still am.

 

[zaremba]

gooch was an excellent odi player...excelled against pace, not so good against spin, but he did adapt successfully to spinning conditions as well, remember him sweeping maninder singh(i think?) to oblivion in the 1987 wc semifinals...

Made himself a good player of spin. As you say, he swept England to the World Cup final. And (although it's admittedly not much of a recommendation) he was far and away England's best player of spin in the early 90s.

 

[Goocheslamb]

England weren't really that good at ODIs in the 1990s. Better than they have been since 2000/01, yeah, undoubtedly, muchly so. But they were nowhere near the pack-leaders-or-close-to that they had been in the 1970s and 1980s.

A greater influx of teams of course will have played its part in that - in the '70s and '80s there was just England, West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka - and the latter three took their time, considerably, to become particularly good. In the '90s there was the above plus South Africa and Zimbabwe. AND England were starting to fall behind as their domestic cricket remained the same rather than moving to mirror what other countries were turning ODIs into.

England were a great ODI side until 1993, after that the slide began simply because they lost Gooch, Lamb, Botham around that year.

 

[Richard]

Not sure about 1993 - though they beat Pakistan handsomely in summer '92 (when The Cure had their most notable hit and most hated song Friday I'm In Love), those were the only ODIs they played between March 1992 and January 1993. Hard to say whether they were one thing or another TBH.