Glenn McGrath vs Richard Hadlee

[trundler]

There is no evidence to suggest that their batting approach would have been more successful against McGrath considering both Amrose and Steyn won a series in OZ.
Donald was the only ATG bowler from 90s who probably struggled in Aus . That was more due to Steve Waugh's strong defence rather than attacking approach.

Lara, VVS and Astle averaged ~40 in matches involving McGrath.Plus, I think Ponting did well against him domestically. Not hard evidence but make of that what you will.

 

[Calm_profit]

Lara, VVS and Astle averaged ~40 in matches involving McGrath.Plus, I think Ponting did well against him domestically. Not hard evidence but make of that what you will.

Add Ijaz ,Saeed Anwar and Pietersen who also did well against McGrath.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Lara, VVS and Astle averaged ~40 in matches involving McGrath

I know you've picked him as an example of an attacking batsman, but seeing Astle grouped with Lara and Laxman made me assume I was reading a Fuller Pilch post.

 

[Burgey]

Mcgrath never had to bowl against the greatest batting lineup of his era.

Richards here gets a lot of stick for not facing the best bowling lineup of his era. But Mcgrath always seems to escape scrutiny in this regard.

McGrath also bowled in one of the most batsman-friendly eras of all time. People (rightly imo) factor that in to some extent when dealing with batting stats from that era but don't seem to when it comes to bowlers for whatever reason.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

McGrath also bowled in one of the most batsman-friendly eras of all time. People (rightly imo) factor that in to some extent when dealing with batting stats from that era but don't seem to when it comes to bowlers for whatever reason.

That reminds me of Sacin fans saying Sachin is a better ODI bat than Kohli because 1) Kohli bats in the most batsman friendly era 2) Sachin has to face superior bowlers

 

[Prince EWS]

McGrath also bowled in one of the most batsman-friendly eras of all time. People (rightly imo) factor that in to some extent when dealing with batting stats from that era but don't seem to when it comes to bowlers for whatever reason.

Yeah McGrath is the GOAT for this reason.

At risk of derailing the thread a bit, this is also why I rate Cummins and Hazlewood really highly. Those home pitches for the first few years of their careers were absolutely brutal. I think Smith's batting record is less impressive than it may seem due to this (I actually still rated Kohli ahead of him until 12-18 months ago), but if Cummins and Haze have long careers and don't fall off cliffs etc I'll probably end up rating them both in the top 15 bowlers of all time.

 

[Burgey]

@ AA: Yeah but there has been an exponential growth in ODI scores generally over the period spanning their careers tbf. Different playing conditions etc are a factor there within the ODI format.

FWIW I think they're both incredible ODI players. Tendulkar's longevity and output was ridiculous but then you've got Kohli's ability to chase. Batted only one spot apart in the order but somehow very different players and roles.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

@ AA: Yeah but there has been an exponential growth in ODI scores generally over the period spanning their careers tbf. Different playing conditions etc are a factor there.

So that means bowlers like Starc, Amir, Boult are better than Akram, Mcgrath, Ambrose because they have bowl in the most batting friendly era

 

[Burgey]

I think Smith's batting record is less impressive than it may seem due to this

A reasonable point, somewhat obviated imo by his scoring runs most everywhere else. Still worth keeping in mind.

Those mid-2010s pitches here were god awful. Hope we don't see their like again on a widespread scale. Melbourne is probably still the one which remains horribly flat, though Sydney not much better. Good signs in Perth, Adelaide (D/N) and Hobart. Brisbane is bouncy-flat, made all the more so when they moved their test to later in the summer. Always a better spectacle when it's in November and there's more swing/ seam.

 

[CricAddict]

That reminds me of Sacin fans saying Sachin is a better ODI bat than Kohli because 1) Kohli bats in the most batsman friendly era 2) Sachin has to face superior bowlers

Odis have progressively become more and more batsman friendly. For tests, 90s was quite balanced, 2000s batting friendly and post that it has been bowling friendly. Shows how good Smith has been.

 

[Burgey]

So that means bowlers like Starc, Amir, Boult are better than Akram, Mcgrath, Ambrose because they have bowl in the most batting friendly era

I don't necessarily hold to that viewpoint because I think greats will adapt no matter the era. So if your average bowling RPO now is like 5.75 or whatever then I would expect the greats of past eras to put a similar distance between the plodders of this era to what they did to the plodders of their own.

Same with batting. You would expect Tendulkar's/ Ponting's/ Gilchrist/ Jayasuriya's/ Whichever 90s or 2000s gun etc SRs to go up just as the average SR has gone up. The truly mind boggling SR to contemplate in today's ODI era and playing conditions would be Viv Richards.

It's the same when people talk about Bradman maybe averaging about 70 or whatever today. That's fine, but if you want to lop 3/10ths off his average, do it for every great of the same era, and you get someone like Hobbs, Hutton or Hammond averaging mid-30s today, which I think is ridiculous because they were great players and would adapt. It's what great players do.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Odis have progressively become more and more batsman friendly. For tests, 90s was quite balanced, 2000s batting friendly and post that it has been bowling friendly. Shows how good Smith has been.

I don't necessarily hold to that viewpoint because I think greats will adapt no matter the era. So if your average bowling RPO now is like 5.75 or whatever then I would expect the greats of past eras to put a similar distance between the plodders of this era to what they did to the plodders of their own.

Boult's ODI average is 24
Starc's 22.2
Bumrah's 24.3
Afridi's 23.9

Mcgrath's 22.0
Akram's 23.5
Donald's 21.8
Ambrose's 24.1

Adjusting for eras modern ODI bowling greats are much better than 90's.

That's fine, but if you want to lop 3/10ths off his average, do it for every great of the same era, and you get someone like Hobbs, Hutton or Hammond averaging mid-30s today, which I think is ridiculous because they were great players and would adapt. It's what great players do.

Hammond record is lopsided. He was a minnow basher. His record against WI which had the best pace attack in the era is pretty poor.
Hobbs batted a lot in 10s which was lot harder than any other era ever since for batting.

 

[Burgey]

Adjusting for era's modern ODI bowling greats are much better than 90's.

I think I would much rather face Boult, Starc or Afridi than the 90s fellas you mentioned. But that's just me.

One of the interesting things about the current era is England have had a great (especially for them) ODI side but don't have a stand out bowler cf some others in the same era.

 

[Burgey]

Hobbs batted a lot in 10s which was lot harder than any other era ever since for batting.

1914-1918 produced some very dodgy surfaces in particular.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I think I would much rather face Boult, Starc or Afridi than the 90s fellas you mentioned. But that's just me.

One of the interesting things about the current era is England have had a great (especially for them) ODI side but don't have a stand out bowler cf some others in the same era.

U really would face Starc over Mcgrath?

Mcgrath might be more likely to take your wicket but Starc is way more likely to kill you

 

[Burgey]

Yeah but it's about not getting out isn't it? If you're wanting to face someone purely because they're 10kph slower then you're sort of leaving the realm of what players at that level (or any relative level) would think and substituting in a fear factor for people who won't ever play at that standard. Like there's no way a Buttler or a Tendulkar or a Kohli would fear an out and out quick like Lee or Starc more than McGrath in an ODI.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

One of the interesting things about the current era is England have had a great (especially for them) ODI side but don't have a stand out bowler cf some others in the same era.

Most other teams have at least 2 or 3 ODI bowling greats, but who is England's best ODI bowler?

Willis
Gough
Flintoff
Anderson
Swann
Woakes
????

Perhaps big Freddie

 

[subshakerz]

I rate McGrath ahead of Hadlee as first among equals but I think the 'bowled so we'll in a batting era' gets played way too much as if he performed some bowling miracle. Yes pitches had slowed but it was nowhere near as bad as pitches that Kapil, Imran, Wasim, Vaas had to bowl on for half of their careers. And several sides that McGrath played against, like Pakistan and WI, were weaker than their 90s versions. Pitches were probably a lot worse in the early and mid 2010s.

I have the same problem when they use this argument to prop up Steyn who played half his career on the most sporting pitches in the world.

 

[Migara]

I think I would much rather face Boult, Starc or Afridi than the 90s fellas you mentioned. But that's just me.

One of the interesting things about the current era is England have had a great (especially for them) ODI side but don't have a stand out bowler cf some others in the same era.

90s fellas didn't have the luxury of bouncing you in the ODI game.

 

[Migara]

I rate McGrath ahead of Hadlee as first among equals but I think the 'bowled so we'll in a batting era' gets played way too much as if he performed some bowling miracle. Yes pitches had slowed but it was nowhere near as bad as pitches that Kapil, Imran, Wasim, Vaas had to bowl on for half of their careers. And several sides that McGrath played against, like Pakistan and WI, were weaker than their 90s versions. Pitches were probably a lot worse in the early and mid 2010s.

I have the same problem when they use this argument to prop up Steyn who played half his career on the most sporting pitches in the world.

I don't necessarily agree with this assessment. Other than for Imran, particularly Vaas and Wasim calibrated their game around hitting batsmen's pads. Low bounce helped it. And both specifically delivered wobble seam deliveries so it would hit the shine and skid. Vaas particularly struggled in latter years when the ball started bouncing over the stumps off a length on faster wickets. Kapil and Wasim were not much different from Vaas in last few years of their careers. In addition these guys were masters of cutting the ball, giving it a chance to stuck in the pitch. These bowlers are products of the pitches they played.