yeah .... a bowler who averaged 27.7 in first 62 tests in just 5.5 months with out any bowling support what so ever and with out resorting to any tampering was **** indeed.
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Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll
- Thread starter Teja.
- Start date
you can clearly come across Sadiq Mohammed speaking against Imran Khan in this video , not supporting him ....
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
He was solid enough but I can think of 10 NZ seamers who were/are better.
smash84
The Tiger King
Did you also notice Geoffrey boycott's points against him?
of course .... but that doesn't take away any thing from the fact that more than 25 people are seen accusing Imran of committing an unfair tactic.
Geoffrey was only generally speaking w.r.t this topic
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Might be ... but what has that got to do with Kapil being a quality bowler himself ?
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
#randomkiwi
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Playing 62 tests in 5 and a half months is pretty impressive no matter what his average tbh.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I never denied that Imran tampered with the ball because he himself admitted it. I was always against the hypocrisy of singling him out when it was common practice among the cricketers of the time.
shortpitched713
International Captain
FIFY
smash84
The Tiger King
Imran gets singled out because of the 'extends to which' he went w.r.t this act and also because of the frequency with which he did it. You won't get any other player's name 'getting specifically singled out' directly or indirectly by 25 or more contemporaries other than that of Imran Khan.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
He is singled out because a) he admitted it and b) using it with reverse swing made him a new and unbeatable phenomenon at the time, because benefitting from the old ball was something different.
Are we really going to pretend lifting the seam wasn't done in virtually every game across the Anglosphere? Is that more acceptable because it was gentleman cheating?
Let us get off our high horses.
AndyZaltzHair
Hall of Fame Member
Now when every case is pointed out, it becomes exceptional. Your argument fell apart with Hadlee’s example. There are other reasons that these bowlers became great with extraordinary peaks. Not because of conspiracy theories only. Too bad Kapil could not elevate himself to their level.
kyear2
International Coach
Just for the record, thele comment that I said went too far was when Subz said that if anything he should be given credit or something along those lines. Nah...
I don't like touching this topic because it gets us nowhere and I still rank Imran extremely highly, just as high or higher than many on the forum. I also know that it's an emotional subject for many, and that leads to volatile responses and conversations.
While reading through some of these and older posts I started to think about Barry Bonds. Well before the sudden "change" he was a HOFer and among the best ever, also steroids aren't a magic pill that makes you a good player far less a great one. I could take them and all I would do is ground out harder, if I managed to hit the ball at all. I also believe that he should be in the HOF.
I did watch the video and I have a lot of observations with regards to same.
I don't think I appreciated how the interviewer operated, but I think at the end I see what he was trying to accomplish.
I think the umpire was extremely disingenuous, but that's neither here nor there and again I guess I understand why.
I don't like the equivalency argument, even more than that, I hated the argument that at the other end was a really good bowler and they couldn't get the ball to do what I did. Imran is without doubt one of the 10 greatest fast bowlers of all time, skill level even higher than that, that isn't the point.
Saying yeah we carved up that ball, but only I could make it work doesn't absolve from carving up the ball.
I hate this, "everyone was doing it argument" , in a much older post it was suggested that Lillee and Snow lifted the seam repeatedly, Lillee got away with lots of ****, that's not surprising, but what I've read here seemed to exceed just doing that. Pushing the boundaries has always been part of cricket, Grace refused to walk, bowlers used hair grease and sun screen instead of just sweat, batsmen would hit the leather of the ball and not walk (yes I consider this as well), but some things go beyond. And for the record, if someone shows any kind of proof of us doing the same to that extent, even MM, I would criticize him the same.
Lastly, and the most touchy of subjects, was there a racial component? This is nothing that we are not accustomed to, there was a reason we wanted to play England so much when we were doing well, why the immigrant community over there came out in numbers to support us. The on-field heckling from certain countries, the comments from Greig, Gavaskar feeling confident calling our supporters what he did, etc etc. I can understand that, hell there are (a miniscule amount of) posters on here that are subtly (or subconsciously) racially biased, but from the comments and articles posted on the previous page, most of the dissenting comments were made by former teammates or Pakistani players in general. Now I know Imran was divisive and some of those may have been rivals with an ax to grind and I'll leave that up to you to clear up, or it may also be political, I don't know.
Coming back to Bonds though, there was an argument made that if everyone was doing it, were you even trying if you weren't. I'm not sure if I bought that, but if you felt that you were falling behind because of it, I could understand it.
Do I think Imran was an ATG without it? Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have him as highly as I do, do I think that tampering made him even better, possibly. How much? I nor anyone else can say with any certainty and makes no sense harboring on it.
With regards to the primary question of the thread, do I think he's better than Sir Garry? No. But that's because of how I see the game, yes bowlers are slightly more impactful, but Sobers for me was the perfect player. A top 4 batsman of all time who was equally brilliant at the most impactful and difficult of fielding positions, who also happened to be the most versatile and effective 5th bowler in history who actually won matches with the ball. That's hard to beat.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
This is the real point. He tampered, others tampered, we don't know how much anyone did, so let it go and we should stop this silly downplaying of his record.
kyear2
International Coach
So obviously you skipped the rest of the post for the one line that you agree with.
His name was being called well before he admitted to it, so why was his name called more than others.
And my last point and I'm done with you on this topic as well. Just because I said who knows, doesn't mean it didn't imoact, after all I assume there was a reason he did it and more importantly taught it. But most importantly, instead of this bullshit everyone did it excuse, how about yeah that possibly wasn't the best way to build and pass on a legacy, but zero accountability. It's just, everyone did it, let's ignore it then.
And the race thing that you keep bringing up (Anglo-Saxon and "gentlemen"), again I'm from the Caribbean, I get it. But the vast majority of dissentors previously referenced were from Pakistan, so stop hiding behind that.
You seriously lack any kind of objectivity
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
It is funny you bring accountability when literally all of the majority of tamperers of that era got away with it without any public criticism, unlike Imran.
Until you denounce majority of that era, the Imran critique rings hollows.
Which other cases other than Hadlee? As I said already Hadlee is a not a saint either ... Otherwise he wouldn't have asked for tampering to be made legal .Again , apart from his own statement I have not seen any body accusing Hadlee of ball tampering . But this is not the case with Imran.
When more than 25 people accuse some one of any 'particular quilt' , their has to be lots of credibility in that assusation.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
What accusation? He admitted it himself in 1992. He even defined what he considered to be acceptable tampering vs outright cheating.