Ganguly v Tendulkar

[tooextracool]

I thought you consider Tendulkar to be all hype?

never said anything remotely close about him in ODIs, and ive never said that he wasnt a good test batsman either.....

 

[tooextracool]

I guess he is talking about Ganguly. Look at Ganguly's record overseas and compare it to other Indian captains.

yes i know, which is why i think he is the best option to lead the side amongst the current players. i was hinting at the exaggeration.....

 

[tooextracool]

I am talking about Ganguly. When he took over, India even lost at home. There was young blood in the team in the form of Harbhajan, Sehwag, Zaheer and Nehra coming in and Ganguly fought with selectors on occasions to get these guys settled in the team to an extent. He stuck by his team and made it to believe in itself and that is seen in results which has made Ganguly the most successful captain for India in tests. So it was a team building exercise for Ganguly also, maybe not to the extent that Fleming or Hussain had to go through but for an Indian captain asserting himself to the selectors and everybody else and sticking with his team through thick and thin made the team more comfortable and helped in his cause to be successful.

oh yes i know all about what ganguly has done, but believe me there was never a time when india were in 'shambles'. shambles is what england were when hussain took over....shambles is what NZ were when fleming took over or what WI are in test cricket ATM. ganguly always had a side with extremely talented players, sachin,dravid,laxman,himself,srinath,kumble etc are all extremely talented, indeed the only problem was that the captains before him were so useless that they couldnt get them to play as a team outside of home in tests.yet they were still amongst the top 4 teams in the world....surely they were better than england,NZ,WI and SL when he took over? ganguly has led from the front, hes been arrogant and hes got them to play like a team particularly in ODIs. but if you for one second think that ganguly's been brilliant in terms of field placings, strategies or anything related then you are out of your mind.

 

[aussie_beater]

Yes I agree that Ganguly has his failings in strategy. But he is a very capable leader of men. That's what he has shown, and its an essential and important part of being a captain. He can improve on strategies.

Before Ganguly came in, India were getting thrashed in overseas series all the time without winning even a single test outside the sub-continent for 15 long years. Under him the team has now won tests in Zim, WI, Eng and Aus outside the subcontinent and ofcourse won in Pakistan and SL as well, and taken India to a world cup final outside the sub-continent also. That's an achievement when you put in context of India's performance away from home.Yes its a much better team to just be contented at achieving these, but what I am saying is that Ganguly has built this team and so should lead it till it reaches its potential, if it does at all.

 

[Eclipse]

He has two big things he should improve..

1 - he is a useless tactican maybe he cant improve this but this is where Tendulkar and co need to help out..

2 - he is a terrible feilder and sets a shocking example in the feild. This he can improve and for the life of me I cant understand why he has not worked on it..

 

[masterblaster]

He has worked on it, if you've seen him in the last few ODI's he's played in England, and even against Pakistan, his fielding has improved considerably.

Sure he is not in the league of a Yuvraj or a Kaif or a Tendulkar, but his fielding has definitely improved. His catching as well is always very, very safe.

 

[aussie_beater]

He has two big things he should improve..

1 - he is a useless tactican maybe he cant improve this but this is where Tendulkar and co need to help out..

On-field tactics is a very subjective thing. He cannot be called useless at all, but ofcourse he isn't that brilliant either. I have seen him do pretty good with bowling changes and field placements and I have seen him do bad as well.It clicks sometimes and the tactics is hailed as good, and sometimes it falls flat.He is not an exceptional tactician but tactics IMO, are overrated in cricket as an attribute of how good a captain one is. If you don't have your team members perform and believe in themselves, there ain't much you can achieve just by tactics.Motivation and leadership are paramount.

2 - he is a terrible feilder and sets a shocking example in the feild. This he can improve and for the life of me I cant understand why he has not worked on it..

Actually he takes pretty astounding catches. But I agree that the goof-ups that he does sometimes are pretty astounding too. But Indian fielders have been mostly like him, except the Kaifs and Yuvrajs. I think he has improved his general fielding as has the standard of Indian fielding gone up, but still he is no Kaif or Yuvraj.

 

[masterblaster]

Well said aussie_beater. He's got two of the safest hands in the Indian Cricket team along with VVS Laxman and Sachin Tendulkar.

 

[Jono]

Great post Aussie Beater. Tactics are important, but what good are they if your team isn't a unit? Isn't believing in themselves? It's worthless.

Also a lot of the times, his moves and choices are overlooked. I still remember him bowling Sachin in the Adelaide test, who got both Martyn and Waugh when they were beginning to put on a dangerous partnership. Little things like that are overlooked because Sachin doesn't have the blatant tactical ability like Fleming, he is therefore considered to have no ability which is untrue.

 

[SJS]

GANGULY : AN OBJECTIVE ASSESMENT

PROS
1. Has virtually rid Indian cricket of state/zonal bias at least at the captains level. A great achievement.
2. Backs the youngsters and those he feels are fighters to a hilt. Once in his good books you stay there for long. No other Indian skipper has ever backed youngsters as he does.
3. Is not intimidated by authority or seniority.
4. Puts great emphasis on team rather than individual-again a kind of first for India.
5. Brings a level of confidence against the best opponents that hasnt been seen since Pataudi. The whole team reflects the same.
6. Is a fighter personally.

CONS
1. No great tactician
2. Rarely seen correcting bowlers on the field or making them do things differently.
3. Once a player is out of his good books, he rarely gives a second chance.
4. Has a chip on his shoulder about the captains position and can appear irreverant towards seniors.
5. Doesnt seem to care that he comes off as arrogant.
6. His fielding is a terrible reflection on his attitude. This is one area any cricketer can improve. All it takes is hard work. Same for his running between wickets.
7. Seems to have too many mental blocks particularly in bowling non regular bowlers including himself.
8. Seems to suddenly run out of ideas when the team is under pressure. Tends to let things drift and wait for a favourable turn.
9. Seems reluctant to offer undiluted/unconditional praise to Sachin ever. Gives the impression of having a complex in this regard.
10. Rarely experiments on the field or in bowling changes. Very set and predictable as a fielding side captain.

VERDICT :
A good leader off the field but not a great one on it

 

[Raj123]

Great post Aussie Beater. Tactics are important, but what good are they if your team isn't a unit? Isn't believing in themselves? It's worthless.

Also a lot of the times, his moves and choices are overlooked. I still remember him bowling Sachin in the Adelaide test, who got both Martyn and Waugh when they were beginning to put on a dangerous partnership. Little things like that are overlooked because Sachin doesn't have the blatant tactical ability like Fleming, he is therefore considered to have no ability which is untrue.

do you mean sourav (above)..........

but you cant deny ganguly can be very poor sometimes too. among others, i remember him once bowling the seamer and spinner from the wrong ends in the aus series, until sachin (who wasnt initially on the field) pointed it out to him.
still i think he is the best person to lead the side mainly due to the culture that exists in and around the team.

 

[marc71178]

CONS
5. Doesnt seem to care that he comes off as arrogant.

I wouldn't necessarily say that's a con.

 

[SJS]

I wouldn't necessarily say that's a con.

no, not necessarily.

 

[Sunny Mehta]

It is interesting that the only real thing that Ganguly has is stuff like "leadership" and "arrogance"

This is not needed when Tendulkar is around. Tendulkar can inspire a team of young players just with his presence.

Nobody has argued that Ganguly is a good batsman

Over the last three years playing test teams not including Bangladesh and Zimbabwe he average is 26.06, impressive?

With the same teams, when he is captain we only win 42% of our games, impressive?

Ganguly cannot lead a team, cannot use very good tactics, cannot bat, cannot bowl, why is he even in the team? Especially the test team

 

[Mr Casson]

But he has his moments of absolute glory. I think it was the 'Gabba test last season, when he hit a brilliant hundred on a greentop against the Aussies, and his arrogance just made him look better. That kind of stick-it-up-your-**** attitude makes him look like a million dollars when he backs it up.

 

[SJS]

It is interesting that the only real thing that Ganguly has is stuff like "leadership" and "arrogance"

Since we are discussing captaincy surely leadership is not a quality to be scoffed at.

As far as Sachin is concerned, his last attempt wasnt a great success. Not because he doesnt understand the game or tactics. Far from it. He is one of the best students of the game but like most really great players, his expectations from individual team members was unrealistically high. He never could relax as a captain. Maybe a second spell would be better but there is no justification for risking it.

Dravid is a much better bet.

Nobody has argued that Ganguly is a good batsman

Again. It is because we are discussing captaincy. One of Englands greatest captains (Brearley) wouldnt have found a place in the side. Saurav is much better than that. He is a wonderful one day batsman and good enough to hold his place in the Indian side in tests.

Yes if he were not the captain, he would be dopped on continued poor form earlier than if he was in purely as a batsman. But then thats true for all captains.

 

[luckyeddie]

It is interesting that the only real thing that Ganguly has is stuff like "leadership" and "arrogance"

From the point of view of captaincy, leadership is numero uno, dos and tres.

 

[Waughney]

Agree with most, Ganguly for sure.

 

[Jono]

9. Seems reluctant to offer undiluted/unconditional praise to Sachin ever. Gives the impression of having a complex in this regard.

Can you elaborate on that. I found that very interesting.

And yes Raj, when I said 'Sachin' I meant 'Ganguly'.

 

[aussie_beater]

With the same teams, when he is captain we only win 42% of our games, impressive?

And is that stat for test matches or ODIs ? At any rate, can you name another Indian captain in recent memory who had a winning percentage like that ?