Future of fast bowling in India

[Richard]

That's because you're not an international cricketer. For you, 50 mph vs 40 mph will make a difference. For guys who are used to higher speeds, 80 mph vs 70 mph will make a difference.

I'm not even close to being a club 3rd-XI standard batsman. Like I said - I could barely get the bat halfway down for 76mph.
80 to 70 will make a difference - 85 to 90 won't make much.

 

[Richard]

How would you happen to know anything about him besides what you've seen in the last 2 matches? He was rated as pacier than Munaf all across the nation and yes they do get clocked in matches that aren't international ODIs. I'm pretty sure he's not at his quickest right now.

That's as maybe - what speeds have the two of them been clocked at other than these 2 ODIs, then?
Fact is, if it's just batsmen and spectators saying that VRV is quicker they might easily be mistaken. If both have been timed and VRV has been quicker, fair enough.
Even so - if VRV bowls the pile of crap we've seen from him so far, he can bowl at 150kph and he'll still be utterly useless.

 

[adharcric]

You'd have to be 160kph AT LEAST to trouble batsmen just with pace.

It's more relative than that. Even 160kph fired a foot outside the leg stump won't trouble the batsmen.

Facing a 70 mph delivery on off-stump isn't as bad as facing a 80 mph delivery on off-stump because you have less time to react. There's a chance that extra pace will result in a misjudged shot. Similarly, facing Sreesanth's 88 mph deliveries on off-stump is a trickier proposition than facing Agarkar's similar 81 mph deliveries of off-stump. I'd say for a decent international batsman anything over 85 will need to be dealt with more carefully. All this doesn't even take swing into account. Remember Sreesanth getting KP out ... it was his quickest ball, clocked at 144 and chances are that extra pace coupled with the regular seam/swing troubled KP. Not everything is black and white.

 

[adharcric]

That's as maybe - what speeds have the two of them been clocked at other than these 2 ODIs, then?
Fact is, if it's just batsmen and spectators saying that VRV is quicker they might easily be mistaken. If both have been timed and VRV has been quicker, fair enough.
Even so - if VRV bowls the pile of crap we've seen from him so far, he can bowl at 150kph and he'll still be utterly useless.

You're right, they need to be clocked and not just observed. I'm just assuming that the selectors had them clocked in a few matches and accordingly chose VRV over Munaf initially (because of extra pace), and that rumors flying around the domestic circuit weren't baseless.

 

[Richard]

It's more relative than that. Even 160kph fired a foot outside the leg stump won't trouble the batsmen.

Facing a 70 mph delivery on off-stump isn't as bad as facing a 80 mph delivery on off-stump because you have less time to react. There's a chance that extra pace will result in a misjudged shot. Similarly, facing Sreesanth's 88 mph deliveries on off-stump is a trickier proposition than facing Agarkar's similar 81 mph deliveries of off-stump. I'd say for a decent international batsman anything over 85 will need to be dealt with more carefully. All this doesn't even take swing into account. Remember Sreesanth getting KP out ... it was his quickest ball, clocked at 144 and chances are that extra pace coupled with the regular seam/swing troubled KP. Not everything is black and white.

Neither a ball at 88mph that doesn't move or one at 81mph that doesn't move is likely to cause the slightest problem.
Of course, once a ball swings pace does, obviously, become important, because of the basic, simple fact that the more pace, the less reaction-time.

 

[Richard]

You're right, they need to be clocked and not just observed. I'm just assuming that the selectors had them clocked in a few matches and accordingly chose VRV over Munaf initially (because of extra pace), and that rumors flying around the domestic circuit weren't baseless.

VRV was picked ahead of Munaf?
I actually thought Java made a good point (hard to notice what with his awful mic-skill - but he does actually know just a bit about bowling) in the final ODI that it was ludicrous to pick VRV for a ODI at this stage. Clearly, his domestic-one-day record is poor. It seems to me that something like this was always likely. And now it's happened, surely it can do the lad nought but harm.
And on that point - Munaf needs to sort-out his no-balling, then he looks on-route to becoming a reasonable ODI bowler.

 

[Goughy]

I've faced 86mph balls (fastest our bowling-machine will deliver) and I could barely get my bat halfway down - facing 76 it wasn't much different.

When you push your reflexes to the limit small changes mean big differences.

Your limit is judging by the above post is below 76 and anything there or thereabouts is difficult to play.

76 aint that quick and the step to 80+ is big. Any decent player notices that easily. Every 5 mph (8kph) has a big noticable difference to an accomplished batsman.

BTW 86 on a bowling machine, if using bowling machine balls, is a lot slower than a 'real' 86 from a bowlers hand.

 

[Richard]

Well... 86mph is 86mph. It's like the "what is heavier, a tonne of steel or a tonne of feathers?" question.
I'm no expert in the mechanisms of bowling-machines, but surely (given the bowling-machine-balls are designed for use in them) it will propel them at 86mph, which is the same as a cricket-ball propelled at 86mph for a bowler.
Look - I've watched plenty of cricket and, in general, bowlers who bowl at 85mph get about the same sort of general reaction from batsmen as bowlers who bowl at 90mph. Indeed, only on the quickest pitches (read The WACA) will it cause problems.
Obviously, if all other things are equal you'd prefer to be bowling at 85 than 80, but by-and-large it won't make a tremendous difference.

 

[adharcric]

VRV was picked ahead of Munaf?
I actually thought Java made a good point (hard to notice what with his awful mic-skill - but he does actually know just a bit about bowling) in the final ODI that it was ludicrous to pick VRV for a ODI at this stage. Clearly, his domestic-one-day record is poor. It seems to me that something like this was always likely. And now it's happened, surely it can do the lad nought but harm.
And on that point - Munaf needs to sort-out his no-balling, then he looks on-route to becoming a reasonable ODI bowler.

It wasn't ludicrous to pick him, we're only saying that now that he's had a terrible beginning. But yes, it would've been wiser to bring him in via test cricket. The thing is, we were about to do that but Munaf deserved the call-up more and really impressed; once the ODIs came along, the selectors were desperate to give VRV the go that he didn't get earlier.

 

[Richard]

I find it was ludicrous, really.
Surely he never looked that accurate?
And while I'd not have expected him to bowl 7 overs for 70-odd, I wasn't amazed when he went for a few. From everything I'd heard and read, accuracy didn't seem to be a forte of his. And it can be ruinous to come in and be hammered like that.

 

[Goughy]

Well... 86mph is 86mph. It's like the "what is heavier, a tonne of steel or a tonne of feathers?" question.
I'm no expert in the mechanisms of bowling-machines, but surely (given the bowling-machine-balls are designed for use in them) it will propel them at 86mph, which is the same as a cricket-ball propelled at 86mph for a bowler.

Well by your argument I must be better than I thought. I occasionally take throw downs from the bowling machine on top setting (80-90mph these things are not that accurate) with just gloves and no pads and I am not a batsman.

However, when facing a quickie for real the ball comes far quicker and is genuinely quite scary at 85mph even with a helmet and other protective equipment.

Nothing to do with me being good (Im not) but to do with the bowling machine not replicating the speed accurately.

In fact, a bowling machine ball travels through the air slower than a 'real' ball and comes off the surface much slower. There is a huge difference in the speed by the time it reaches the batsman even if they both start at similar speeds.

 

[marc71178]

I'm not even close to being a club 3rd-XI standard batsman. Like I said - I could barely get the bat halfway down for 76mph.
80 to 70 will make a difference - 85 to 90 won't make much.

If you can't cope with 76 then it follows that you won't be able to cope with 86, thus it would make sense that you don't see a difference as you can't cope with either.

 

[adharcric]

If you can't cope with 76 then it follows that you won't be able to cope with 86, thus it would make sense that you don't see a difference as you can't cope with either.

Well said, it shouldn't really be that difficult to understand.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Until last month you were advocating for bringing in fast bowlers like Munaf etc and now that they are in the side, you want them to be dropped in favor of the Crap on Zaheer and Agarkar and an injury prone Balaji ?

May be it has something to do with Munaf's hitting capabilities which left you seriously dissapointed.

Hopefully they have learnt something from this match. They have it in them to play for India in the future, but the people in charge should groom them properly, rather than take a backward step and go back to Agarkar, Zaheer and Balaji.

Um Sanz, what were you smoking.

 

[adharcric]

the usual

 

[quick4mindia]

If you can't cope with 76 then it follows that you won't be able to cope with 86, thus it would make sense that you don't see a difference as you can't cope with either.

Good Point!!!!

 

[quick4mindia]

Well by your argument I must be better than I thought. I occasionally take throw downs from the bowling machine on top setting (80-90mph these things are not that accurate) with just gloves and no pads and I am not a batsman.

However, when facing a quickie for real the ball comes far quicker and is genuinely quite scary at 85mph even with a helmet and other protective equipment.

Nothing to do with me being good (Im not) but to do with the bowling machine not replicating the speed accurately.

In fact, a bowling machine ball travels through the air slower than a 'real' ball and comes off the surface much slower. There is a huge difference in the speed by the time it reaches the batsman even if they both start at similar speeds.

I just feel that the methods used to measure the speeds of the balls is different for when its released from the bowling machine.
For balls released from hand a doppler's Radar can give fairly accurate estimate. The problem with this technology is that if the ball is not traveling in the same direction where the electromagnetic waves are fired can result into cosine error. similarly if the ball is banged on his own toe by the bowler then also it will show a slower speed that an overpitched ball (simply because the ball is not moving as forward as its moving towards the ground) You all might have noticed that the shortpitched deliveries of very quick bowlers are often measured in 130s.
In case of bowling machines you get the speed that the machine tells you. May be i am wrong because have never used a bowling machine.

 

[DanielFullard]

Sreesanth. Absolutely fantastic young bowler. I have been raving about him on her since his debut and with him and Patel still learning and still improving then thats one hell of a combination

 

[viktor]

Sreesanth. Absolutely fantastic young bowler. I have been raving about him on her since his debut and with him and Patel still learning and still improving then thats one hell of a combination

Does she like it when you speak dirty ???

 

[Richard]

If you can't cope with 76 then it follows that you won't be able to cope with 86, thus it would make sense that you don't see a difference as you can't cope with either.

Good observation, Einstein...