Future captain of Team India

[silentstriker]

I never said India played well, but that doesn't mean that Rahul led very well. For me, India didn't play well at all and Rahul's captaincy wasn't much better either.

Unlike a few like SJS and SS who think there is nothing wrong with Rahul's captaincy and If one raises a simple question about it, it becomes a brainless and ridiculous argument.

It's like Vaughan's captaincy, England sure didn't play well but at the same time Vaughan's captaincy has not been much better either.

Good captaincy does not mean mistake free captaincy. Rahul obviously deserves some of the blame, but where we disagree is on how much, and whether he should still be captain.

Yes it has never been done in the past, does that mean that it should never be done.

No, but it does mean that it has been exceedingly hard for us to win overseas at all, let alone dominate.

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Ridiculous is you, yes we didn't win for 35 years in that country, but does that deny the fact that we had a chance to win the series 3-0 ?

If anything, that's an endorsement of Dravid that we came close to doing so, isn't it? Fact is, he did more than anyone else for 35 years. Was it perfect? No, but I'll take a Test series win overseas any day of the week. India do not win those often, and unless we turn into some kind of consistent winners overseas, it is ridiculous to critizize an overseas victory.

Remember, this is team that couldn't win a series in ZIMBABWE until the beginning of this century, and did not win any GAMES outside the subcontinent for an entire decade, let alone series. From not winning a single game to winning/tying multiple series overseas is quite an achievement in 3-4 years, and Dravid has been fine as a captain.

 

[Sanz]

Nope it was your assumption, My line of argument was, If a player is out of form, Drop him, Changing his batting order isn't going to fix it. Secondly If a player is half decent doesn't mean he can replace Tendulkar/Ganguly @ the top. That's what Dravid has been doing for past 2 years first with his experimentation secondly with retaining out-of-form players.

 

[Prince EWS]

Nope it was your assumption, My line of argument was, If a player is out of form, Drop him, Changing his batting order isn't going to fix it. Secondly If a player is half decent doesn't mean he can replace Tendulkar/Ganguly @ the top. That's what Dravid has been doing for past 2 years first with his experimentation secondly with retaining out-of-form players.

And that would only be a problem if it was a problem, to state the bleeding obvious. You wouldn't suggest there was anything wrong with it if you didn't believe India would perform better if the issue did not exist. You can talk all you want about everyone assuming things about your posts and then not even refute the assumptions - but it's going to continue to happen if you imply things as much as you have (especially completely reasonably assumptions such as the thought that if you think something is wrong, you also think that the side would perform better if it was fixed..).

 

[Sanz]

Good captaincy does not mean mistake free captaincy. Rahul obviously deserves some of the blame, but where we disagree is on how much, and whether he should still be captain.

At the same time winning a series doesn't make him a good captain either. Dravid as captain has to take some blame for our WC performance, just like our coach and other players like Bhajji, Tendulkar, etc. Along with Dada/Bhajji/God/coach, He also has to take blame for whatever happened in WI and how some players worked against him.

No, but it does mean that it has been exceedingly hard for us to win overseas at all, let alone dominate.

In last few years our overseas performance has improved and I dont see why we should bring a 50 year history to unnecessarily highlight Dravid's achievement. The fact is that the team Dravid inherited has been doing decently well, doesn't mean we are winning, but we are coming close, we are performing better. Dravid ofcourse deserves the credit for win but we have been signs of this since last few years.

If anything, that's an endorsement of Dravid that we came close to doing so, isn't it? Fact is, he did more than anyone else for 35 years. Was it perfect? No, but I'll take a Test series win overseas any day of the week. India do not win those often, and unless we turn into some kind of consistent winners overseas, it is ridiculous to critizize an overseas victory.

Well I dont know about others, but atleast I am not criticizing the win, just pointing that it could very well have been 3-0.

Remember, this is team that couldn't win a series in ZIMBABWE until the beginning of this century, and did not win any GAMES outside the subcontinent for an entire decade, let alone series. From not winning a single game to winning/tying multiple series overseas is quite an achievement in 3-4 years, and Dravid has been fine as a captain.

No Dravid has not been as fine as captain as you made out to be, Ricky(Ponting) is fine, Mahela is fine, Smith is fine, Fleming is fine. Dravid isn't. Yes we won a test match in WI where we could have won 3 and I dont see any other series win outside of India under Dravid that we won/tied that you have been trying to suggest.

 

[silentstriker]

At the same time winning a series doesn't make him a good captain either. Dravid as captain has to take some blame for our WC performance, just like our coach and other players like Bhajji, Tendulkar, etc. Along with Dada/Bhajji/God/coach, He also has to take blame for whatever happened in WI and how some players worked against him.

And I said as much. Regardless, I don't particularly hold 100 overs of bad cricket, where your batting was pathetic (and that's the fault of our entire batting line up) against the captaincy of one man. Yea, it wasn't as great as it could be, but it happens.

Well I dont know about others, but atleast I am not criticizing the win, just pointing that it could very well have been 3-0.

But it could just as easily have been 0-1, had it not been for Dravid's batting and (IMO) his good captaincy in the last couple days of the fourth test match.

I dont see any other series win outside of India under Dravid that we won/tied that you have been trying to suggest.

Not a series, but we did win a match in SA, which we had NEVER done before. And that was with our batting lineup being pathetic as it has lately been. IMO he deserves a lot of credit winning despite that. Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dhoni, Jaffer, etc didn't exactly do a lot to help the team win. In a place like SA, it's hard to win with all that weighing your team down.

 

[Sanz]

And that would only be a problem if it was a problem, to state the bleeding obvious. You wouldn't suggest there was anything wrong with it if you didn't believe India would perform better if the issue did not exist. You can talk all you want about everyone assuming things about your posts and then not even refute the assumptions - but it's going to continue to happen if you imply things as much as you have (especially completely reasonably assumptions such as the thought that if you think something is wrong, you also think that the side would perform better if it was fixed..).

No, I dont know if Dropping an out of form Sehwag would have fixed the issue, and I have never said that it would have. But It sure would have given chance to others and that would have been atleast fair as opposed to sticking with a guy who has failed consistently.

I dont know If we would have won had Dravid decided to bowl first in the game but IMO it would have been the correct decision, he clearly under-estimated the Bangladesh seam/pace attach while trying to focus on their spin attack.

 

[Sanz]

Not a series, but we did win a match in SA, which we had NEVER done before. And that was with our batting lineup being pathetic as it has lately been. IMO he deserves a lot of credit winning despite that. Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dhoni, Jaffer, etc didn't exactly do a lot to help the team win. In a place like SA, it's hard to win with all that weighing your team down.

You are clearly glorifying the SA win which we LOST, heck even Pak won a test in SA, tells much about SA test side. And as much as you would like to blame our batting, let me tell you, we lost because of poor bowling.

 

[silentstriker]

You are clearly glorifying the SA win which we LOST, heck even Pak won a test in SA, tells much about SA test side. And as much as you would like to blame our batting, let me tell you, we lost because of poor bowling.

In SA? No, we did not. Well, I should clarify: by the standard of overseas Indian bowling, we did more than fine.

You are clearly glorifying the SA win which we LOST

Well, ideally I'd like to win 4-0 in Australia too, but realistically, considering how often we win in SA (read: never), I'd say winning a Test is quite an achievement.

 

[Sanz]

In SA? No, we did not. Well, I should clarify: by the standard of overseas Indian bowling, we did more than fine..

Except for 2001-02, Indian bowling nin SA has not been worse compared to the last tour.

 

[Sanz]

Well, ideally I'd like to win 4-0 in Australia too, but realistically, considering how often we win in SA (read: never), I'd say winning a Test is quite an achievement.

But that is not new, we have been drawing tests overseas, wining them too before Dravid became captain.