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"Explore the Indian side of Punjab"– Imran on fast bowling...or its absence in India

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
"Explore the Indian side of Punjab"– Imran on fast bowling...or its absence in India

TEN Sports viewers may have seen/heard this discussion yesterday (before this thread appeared) on Straight Drive, with Sanjay Manjrekar, Imran Khan and Nasser Hussain. Manjrekar repeated the age old question– Why are there no fast bowlers in India? Imran said that he too is surprised at that. He said that most fast bowlers in Pakistan come from Punjab, so the BCCI should explore the Indian side of Punjab to find their fastest bowlers. He's also emphasised the importance of an athletic build in fast bowling.

Imran's comments on fast bowling or its absence in India have generated a heated debate elsewhere, some opinions being very immature. What are your comments on this idea?
 

C_C

International Captain
Arjun said:
TEN Sports viewers may have seen/heard this discussion yesterday (before this thread appeared) on Straight Drive, with Sanjay Manjrekar, Imran Khan and Nasser Hussain. Manjrekar repeated the age old question– Why are there no fast bowlers in India? Imran said that he too is surprised at that. He said that most fast bowlers in Pakistan come from Punjab, so the BCCI should explore the Indian side of Punjab to find their fastest bowlers. He's also emphasised the importance of an athletic build in fast bowling.

Imran's comments on fast bowling or its absence in India have generated a heated debate elsewhere, some opinions being very immature. What are your comments on this idea?
Imran is an idiot to make such a statement. The major reason why most fast bowlers in Pakistan come from Punjab is because Punjab comprises of 70% of Pakistan's population.That is not the case with indian side of Punjab. It is a bit like me saying North American economy is predominantly run by the east coast region so Russia should start developing its economy in the east coast siberia to progress.
I think the biggest problem with India and fast bowling is that there are very few people at glassroots level who know much about fast bowling and tend to be very clueless in the formative years of a cricketer ( pre-teen/early teens).
That is something that has to be rectified before IND produces good fast bowlers.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
It is curious. I think there may be a PhD thesis in it for someone who's studying Sports Science. The split seems to be along Hindu & Sikh/Muslim lines; I think I'm right in saying that both the current great seaming hopes for India (Pathan & Zaheer Khan) are Muslim. Ironically I think Pakistan's current champion leggie Danish Kaneria is actually Hindu!

Obviously the pitches young cricketers grow up playing on are also a factor, as are the heroes one aspires to emulate as a child.

Our lack of a truly world-class spinner is perplexing, but is partly explained by our prevalent playing conditions & it is, I'm sure, no coincidence that our brightest young spinning talent is a Sikh who doubtless grew up on stories of Bedi et al from his father & uncles. India's lack of seamers is even harder to explain away tho when one considers the plethora produced by their near neighbours, who have also produced some genuinely world-class spinners in recent years too.

Is diet possibly a factor? This is a sweeping generalisation from an outsider, so I apologise in advance, but do Muslims generally eat more meat (and hence protein) that Hindus or Sikhs?
 

C_C

International Captain
Is diet possibly a factor? This is a sweeping generalisation from an outsider, so I apologise in advance, but do Muslims generally eat more meat (and hence protein) that Hindus or Sikhs?
Yes they do. The average Muslim in the subcontinent eats far more meat than the average hindu or buddhist does. However, a 2004 Harvard study showed that vegitarians ( and vegans) are healthier past the age of 40 than meat eaters- cardiovascular shape, condition of vital organs, muscle conditioning ( interestingly it was found that vegitarians have better muscle conditioning and less fatty frames than meat-eaters and this took into account the proportion of fitness-minded ones in this group) and also had a higher libido.
Major reason why i am predominantly a vegitarian these days actually.
 

Mecnun

U19 Debutant
Just out of interest does anyone know if there has been a genuine quickie who was a vegeterian? ;)

I think Imran's comment has a smirch of merit in it as punjabis tend to be of larger builds and strong comparitively, on the other hand they tend to have small brains ;)
Isnt the weather in Indian punjab more conducive to fast bowling conditions? Also where is Kapil from in India?

In pak most fast bowlers come from Punjab area. Having 70% (it is actually just over 50%) population cannot be the only reason, I am sure physical traits and weather conditions have something to do with it.
 

C_C

International Captain
Mecnun said:
Just out of interest does anyone know if there has been a genuine quickie who was a vegeterian? ;)

I think Imran's comment has a smirch of merit in it as punjabis tend to be of larger builds and strong comparitively, on the other hand they tend to have small brains ;)
Isnt the weather in Indian punjab more conducive to fast bowling conditions? Also where is Kapil from in India?

In pak most fast bowlers come from Punjab area. Having 70% (it is actually just over 50%) population cannot be the only reason, I am sure physical traits and weather conditions have something to do with it.

Kapil is a Jat from Haryana.
I think the predominant reason why Pakistani fast bowlers come from Punjab is the same as why most pakistani cricketers come from Punjab- there isnt much following of cricket(relative to Punjab- atleast thats what i am told) in Balouchistan/Kashmir.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Mecnun said:
Just out of interest does anyone know if there has been a genuine quickie who was a vegeterian? ;)

I think Imran's comment has a smirch of merit in it as punjabis tend to be of larger builds and strong comparitively, on the other hand they tend to have small brains ;)
Isnt the weather in Indian punjab more conducive to fast bowling conditions? Also where is Kapil from in India?

In pak most fast bowlers come from Punjab area. Having 70% (it is actually just over 50%) population cannot be the only reason, I am sure physical traits and weather conditions have something to do with it.
Javagal Srinath started off as a vegetarian (yes, he was really quick early on :p ), took to meat midway through his career.
 

viktor

State Vice-Captain
Mecnun said:
Just out of interest does anyone know if there has been a genuine quickie who was a vegeterian? ;)

I think Imran's comment has a smirch of merit in it as punjabis tend to be of larger builds and strong comparitively, on the other hand they tend to have small brains ;)
Isnt the weather in Indian punjab more conducive to fast bowling conditions? Also where is Kapil from in India?

In pak most fast bowlers come from Punjab area. Having 70% (it is actually just over 50%) population cannot be the only reason, I am sure physical traits and weather conditions have something to do with it.
I think Srinath was a vegetarion for a long time; he might have started eating meat later in his career. I'm guessing there is more to it than just the diet though; the climate would have an influence, but again, only to the extent that in the cooler climes, there is less physical penalty for bowling fast.
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
Its been a long time since I have contributed to CW or even logged in. I just came in to see comments about Ind/Pak series, and the silly post from C_C caught my attention. Its a bit funny how you are getting worked up about Imran's comments. Secondly the North American analogy is pointless and has no connection.

Imran was trying to say that fast bowlers need two things: Lean athletic physique and aggressive attitude. Pak Punjab and Northern Pak people generally have both. Similarly, its common consensus that in India you are most likely to find people who are strong athletically built and with aggression, in Punjab, hence it might be worth looking for talent in this part of India.

Another important point that Imran made was of role models (or maybe he seconded Sajany's opinion). Once they get one role model, they will start poroducing many fast bowlers. Like Pakistan did, once Imran came into the limelight, before that every cricketer in Pak wanted to emulate Hanif, Majid, Sadiq etc.

IMHO, I think this whole vegetarian and meat eater argument is a load of crap.

.....BTW, its grass-roots...

CW guys...great job, the website looks awesome and highly professional, much improved than what I saw last time, lots of quality material.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
royGilchrist said:
Its been a long time since I have contributed to CW or even logged in. I just came in to see comments about Ind/Pak series, and the silly post from C_C caught my attention. Its a bit funny how you are getting worked up about Imran's comments. Secondly the North American analogy is pointless and has no connection.

Imran was trying to say that fast bowlers need two things: Lean athletic physique and aggressive attitude. Pak Punjab and Northern Pak people generally have both. Similarly, its common consensus that in India you are most likely to find people who are strong athletically built and with aggression, in Punjab, hence it might be worth looking for talent in this part of India.

Another important point that Imran made was of role models (or maybe he seconded Sajany's opinion). Once they get one role model, they will start poroducing many fast bowlers. Like Pakistan did, once Imran came into the limelight, before that every cricketer in Pak wanted to emulate Hanif, Majid, Sadiq etc.

IMHO, I think this whole vegetarian and meat eater argument is a load of crap.

.....BTW, its grass-roots...

CW guys...great job, the website looks awesome and highly professional, much improved than what I saw last time, lots of quality material.
nice to see you back roy... :)
 

C_C

International Captain
mran was trying to say that fast bowlers need two things: Lean athletic physique and aggressive attitude.
Is that why Malcolm Marshall, Richard Hadlee, Fanie deVilliers were just about the most non-aggresive people ?
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
C_C said:
Is that why Malcolm Marshall, Richard Hadlee, Fanie deVilliers were just about the most non-aggresive people ?
They weren't the most outwardly aggressive people, but I don't think you need to be showing bravado, in peoples' faces, etc. to be "aggressive".
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
aggressive attitude in this context implies that the bowler will take it personally if is hit for a four or six and will not take it down lying down, but will come back with a faster more aggressive delivery. In this context we are not talking about agression in a way that the guy will punch you in the face if you call his name wrong.

Malcolm Marshall might have been a gentle soul off the field, but he took it personally when he was hit in the field, and would bowl the living daylights out of most batsmen. Hadlee on the other hand was not a genuinely fast bowler for most of his career, but he too had an agression about him, that he liked taking out on batsmen by embarrassing them on the field with excellent bowling, he would become desparate and more threatning when hit by a batsman.

You can find many more examples of aggressive fast bowlers who had a mild off field persona: Waqar Younis, Michael Holding, Allan Donald.

In any case if you are bent on thinking that agression in a fast bowler amounts to nothing than its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.


...nice to see you anil...long time...
 

adharcric

International Coach
Arjun said:
TEN Sports viewers may have seen/heard this discussion yesterday (before this thread appeared) on Straight Drive, with Sanjay Manjrekar, Imran Khan and Nasser Hussain. Manjrekar repeated the age old question– Why are there no fast bowlers in India? Imran said that he too is surprised at that. He said that most fast bowlers in Pakistan come from Punjab, so the BCCI should explore the Indian side of Punjab to find their fastest bowlers. He's also emphasised the importance of an athletic build in fast bowling.

Imran's comments on fast bowling or its absence in India have generated a heated debate elsewhere, some opinions being very immature. What are your comments on this idea?
Come on, it's simple. Draft in VRV Singh to the national side and consider Gagandeep Singh immediately. Joginder Sharma is in Haryana so that's close enough, draft him in as well.

On a serious note, I think diet plays a role. The pak-muslim diet is heavy on meat, while the vegetarian-hindu diet isn't. The punjabi diet (all that desi ghee, parathas etc) can make you, well, solid. Then another thing is the nature of the pitches in India, but I don't think that's as big of a factor because most kids start out playing street cricket where conditions are excellent for tearaway pace. :happy: The role model thing also makes a difference.

Now, that said, I don't think indians need to exclusively eat chicken dosas and lamb parathas just to produce a fast bowler. The fast bowlers are already coming in the form of VRV Singh, Munaf Patel, Sreesanth and Abid Nabi, who all "fast-medium" or "fast". Maybe Indians didn't feel the need for quick bowlers a few decades back because the spin attack and Kapil Dev was working well ... but today the need for a genuine pacer is felt more after seeing Agarkar getting butchered and his bouncers not reaching the wicketkeeper. Personally, I think the fast bowlers are on their way in India, not at the same rate as in Aus, Eng and Pak perhaps, but they are coming.
 

yohanna

Banned
C_C said:
I think the predominant reason why Pakistani fast bowlers come from Punjab is the same as why most pakistani cricketers come from Punjab- there isnt much following of cricket(relative to Punjab- atleast thats what i am told) in Balouchistan/Kashmir.
Javed Miandad, Rashid Lateef,Moin Khan,Hanif Mohd,Sadiq Mohd, Mushtaq Mohd, Shoaib Mohd,Iqbal Qasim,Tauseef Ahmed, Saeed Anwar,Asim Kamal etc .....all from Karachi

Yet just Mohd Sami from Karachi!!!

A lot of cricketers comes up from Non-Panjabi areas, but its a fact that fast bowlers have mostly been able to come from Punjab.Even N.W.F.P produces better pacers than Karachi.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Region or diet– Region does not make a difference alone, as much as the people from there. In Punjab, the people are better built, be it diet or work. We've often perceived Punjabis and Haryanvis as large and muscular (in school, we even had a few lessons on Haryanvis who ate 5 times as much as the people from Uttar Pradesh, for instance) so one may think they're the best raw material. As for diet, there should be enough to add muscle and increase fitness, and it can be any diet that does the job.

Body build– Build does make a difference. Sami's a small man and yet fast, but he sprays the ball all around, so his pace isn't of much use. Malinga isn't as fast as Sami, while we've seen what an easy target Agarkar has been. Not to mention Harvinder Singh, who, luckily for the team, didn't play too many matches. However, one doesn't have to be a Mr. Universe to be a tearaway pacer– rather, that would reduce his pace. The contender just has to have enough muscle to hurl the ball faster than normal, without loading the body too much. Flexibility and reflexes also play an important part in pace.

Role models– So what if there are no Indian role models? Don't aspiring cricketers get thrilled by a Shoaib Akhtar or Brett Lee or a Wasim Akram or Waqar Younis? These are the role models they need. The real problem is the lack of proper coaching. For far too many years we see the so-called Indian Way Of Coaching being propagated, which kills all pace hopes. That laughable model emphasises too much on seam and swing alone, and pace does not seem to matter. Not to mention the infamous "Spin is our main strength" theory. That's often had the selectors picking spinners in bucketfuls and pacers just making up the numbers. Even with Kapil, Prabhakar and Srinath, we saw three spinners picked at home, and Srinath had to sit out all the time. Now, having seen what kind of an impact pace can make in a match, young bowlers should be coached how to hold onto very high pace without burning out. Coaches should stop being conservative.

Aggression– That's something you'll find anywhere, but it's not enough. Agarkar is aggressive, but his lack of build (not to mention technique and bad choice of deliveries) weaken him a great deal. At his best, he can be an innocuous medium-pacer, but falls apart when he tries to be an attacking fast bowler. You'll find it more conspicuous in some places in India, so Punjab comes back, not to mention remote areas of Gujarat, as well as, maybe, Bengal.

Srinath– He was genuinely quick, but not a record-breaker in pace. He was quite effective, as we have seen in one eight-wicket haul against the South Africans. Surprisingly, he was fastest when he was vegetarian. However, he was a victim of warped planning. Not Kapil Dev 'blocking the way for youngsters' (after all, Kapil could bat, unlike Srinath) but the selectors and team management were responsible. When the Indian team played at home, they picked three spinners, leaving Srinath on the bench. They then brought him back for a match away from India. Do you honestly expect him to set the town on fire then? Moreover, his stint in Gloucestershire helped his bowling a great deal, and he was very effective in England, South Africa and New Zealand, but as he lost pace, he lost power, and that weakened him in Australia and on flat pitches. Not to mention, he lacked support.

Selection– Now that's the single most negative factor against pace bowling in India. We see pacers picked in packs now, but all of them lack pace. Yet we see the same packs persisted with. An out-of-form, unfit Zaheer can't do muhch. Nor can Nehra with a niggle. Balaji's decent but lacks pace. Agarkar– now that's a little joke– no a big one, for his size. Irfan– serious, no doubt, but he's not so much a factor because of bowling skill as much as value addition. Yohannan– jaw-dropping, I can't imagine someone with the ideal build fall so short of expectations. We don't see the selectors try someone different, and when they do, they backtrack almost immediately. Sreesanth has a lot of potential, but they went back to Agarkar again. RP Singh has stayed on, but may miss the team once Nehra returns. Joginder– the worst casualty of such selection blunders. The selectors are not even looking out for new, genuine pacers, and that's sad.

New pace hopes for India– First of all, Gagandeep is just another swing bowler. That won't make much of a difference. VR Singh should be rushed into the Indian side sooner than later. Sure, he bowls like Agarkar, but given his build and pace, he can afford to. Munaf is another choice for value addition more than bowling skills, but he is an attacking bowler for his team and he has bowled fast. Abid Nabi plays for a weaker team in the country, so he may find it tough, but he too is fast. Joginder is similar to Balaji, but with a change in action, he can add pace. Sreesanth should return, as a regular, not a fringe player. Hopefully he won't be another Sami clone.
 

Wazim

School Boy/Girl Captain
India do have a team in punjab but they are not producing any quick pacers. They have a couple talented ones like Gagandeep Singh who was dropped after last years tour to Bangladesh.

To me, the problem starts at the grass root levels. India have had a couple good seamers like Dev and Srinath, but no one inspiring like a Wasim, Waqar or Mcgrath. Who are India's bowling heroes? Spinners. Guys like Bedi, Chandanashaker, Harbhajan, Bedi and what not. Kids want to replicate them and learn spin from a early age.

That is why Pakistan have so many pacers. So many guys like to idolize Waqar, Wasim and even Akthar! Look at Asif's action and it is very similar to Asif!

Bangladesh are producing left arm spinners left, right and center! Why is that? Because of a very inspirational Mohammad Rafique.

The trend continues, and so on. Though this is not the whole reason, it is only partially the correct answer. I believe India is hotter than Pakistan. Therefore, the sun makes tracks more viable to turn than seam. Second of all, pacer needs energy. One may get tired by playing in so much heat.

Even though Punjab does make alot of Pakistan's population, the fact that is colder there, they produce more pacers than a place like Karachi near the equator. Karachi has had one pacer and that was a rare exception of Mohammad Sami.
 

Dixie Flatline

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Being neither Pakistani nor Indian, I'm less qualified to comment on this topic, except for the point about the role model. Shane Warne has probably been a hero to most young Australian cricketers for the best part of a decade, but there seem to be precious few leg spinners coming on to the first class cricket scene in Australia. Perhaps looking at the role model question, it's more of an issue that the role model gets the player interested in playing cricket, but then it's up to the coach to identify what talent that player has and to get the best out of that player, eg. if the player is a quick, then the coach needs to work on improving the skills of the quick.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
1. Physique does help. No one can deny that. There are always exceptions to everything but by and large fast bowlers are rarely puny. So Imran is correct to that extent because Punjabis are amongst the most physically qualified for the job.

2. Punjabi is only a language, it doesnt change your physique. The physiwue goesw with a race/a people. All Punjabis are not the same. West and East Punjab are very different. The west Punjab men (irrespective of religion, by the way) are much taller and stronger. They even look different with more 'aryan' features. West Punjab being now in Pakistan, most of the muslim Punjabis are from this stock in Pakistan. Those Hindus(fewer in number) and Sikhs who were from this stock. Sikhism spread more in the western part of Punjab where Guru Nanak was born and you had a larger Sikh population there pre partition than of hindus. These people are farmers and agricultural workers (originally). A very large proportion of them are 'jats'

The eastern Punjab has what we call "bhapaas", people like Bishan Bedi and Sarandeep Singh (and the Amarnaths) to name some cricketers. These guys are basically a different race and are actually traders. They tend to be shorter, plumper, less aquiline features etc. Eastern Punjab has more of them (both Sikhs and Hindus)

The jats, particularly those who came to India as refugees struggled initially for sheer survival since they left their lands and property, everything, back in West Punjab. They did not have much interest in sports. Those left behind (muslims) stayed back at home and did not have the refugee status and were relatively better off for at least a couple of generations after partition.

Further, Punjab, had its centre in Lahore which was the capital of Punjab. Most of the elite of Punjab stayed in Western Punjab thus they were more influenced by the rich mans game which is what cricket was in pre Independence India. The colleges, the schools that encouraged the sport in Punjab were in the West.

On the Indian side, the Eastern Punjab did not produce any great cricketing tradition inspite of the patronage of Maharaja of Patiala. Even he had to get the top players from all over the country (the world really) to come and play for him but did not manage to make the game popular amongst the locals.

Thus hockey bacame the sport of choice of the Eastern Punjabi youth. It was cheaper to play. Punjab continued with hockey till the late sixties.

Imran is right in that the Punjabis have the physique which is a prerequisite for a fast bowler but for that we need to make some effort. Having an MRF type academy in Patiala could be a start. But we must not forget that we have the smaller part of the original Punjab state and of that we have a much smaller proportion of the sturdier Punjabi race as compared to West Punjab or Pakistani Punjab.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
MRF Pace Foundation– Conspiracy or joke? Whatever it is, there have been some good pace bowlers for different teams, but none of the Indian rookies there have come out with enough pace. Maybe they don't know their bowlers well enough. Maybe there's too much technology, too little outcome. Maybe they have got the wrong raw material. We may never know, and I doubt if setting up one in Punjab will help matters much.
 

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