Euro 2020 General Discussion

[wpdavid]

The England/Bulgaria game doesn't sway any sort of argument for anything though. That was the most generic 16 team, 4 group tournament format ever. There is nothing you can do to eliminate every possible situation where the last group games might throw up the odd game where a particular result suits both teams. All you can do is do away with groups altogether and just have a straight knock out tournament.

The point is that playing the final games simultaneously massively reduces the chances of that. It's not impossible, as we may see with Austria/Ukraine this week (which has only arisen because of the four best 3rd placed teams anyway), but it's far less likely, and, in case it wasn't obvious, the final group games in the 1962 WC weren't being played simultaneously. Hungary had already drawn their final game, so England knew that one more point would be enough to qualify.

 

[speirz]

I have no problem with an expanded tournament. There are enough compelling possible reasons for it. Sadly though I suspect the actual reason for it is purely financial/greed related though. And so for this reason it does jar with me.

Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to see it expanded and to see more countries taking part. But the way they've done it is awful. I've been lucky enough to go to the last two tournaments, and given that I follow a country that hadn't made it for so long pre-2006 I can't really argue against giving more fans the chance to experience what I have. I do wish though they'd figured out a format that made qualifying for the knockout stages still feel valued. Especially once they do their usual shenanigans of ensuring teams can't be drawn against those in their same federations, because I feel like that will lead to some weaker groups on the whole while still screwing over some of the better nations outside of Europe and South America.

 

[Uppercut]

They seem to give very little thought to making this type of situation as rare as possible, when I would have it as the number one most important criteria when designing a group stage.

I thought that after the Denmark vs Sweden game they would revert back to using goal difference to split the teams. That (alleged) stitch-up was only made possible by the contrived results-between-teams mini-table tie breaker, which I never really saw the benefit of anyway. But no, they kept it as it was and just hoped it wouldn't happen again.

It's not even active collusion that causes issues. Usually it's just that it's even after 75 minutes and the two sets of tired players obviously have no interest in attacking.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to see it expanded and to see more countries taking part. But the way they've done it is awful. I've been lucky enough to go to the last two tournaments, and given that I follow a country that hadn't made it for so long pre-2006 I can't really argue against giving more fans the chance to experience what I have. I do wish though they'd figured out a format that made qualifying for the knockout stages still feel valued. Especially once they do their usual shenanigans of ensuring teams can't be drawn against those in their same federations, because I feel like that will lead to some weaker groups on the whole while still screwing over some of the better nations outside of Europe and South America.

This is such a good point. Who'd have thought that the experience of millions of fans from other countries might just be more important than the snobbish sensibilities of folks like myself? Anyway, I've pretty much turned full circle on this one since last night. 32 teams rather than 24 every time.

 

[honestbharani]

48 teams in 3-team groups is an absolute abomination. I feel guilty for having ever complained about any other format.

Come on, 2 warm up games before the KOs. Who doesn't love that?

 

[wpdavid]

It's not even active collusion that causes issues. Usually it's just that it's even after 75 minutes and the two sets of tired players obviously have no interest in attacking.

I think there's an element of truth in this. Reading about the Austria/WG match, it was only the last 15 minutes or so when it became blatant. However, if the other group game was being played simultaneously, they wouldn't have known for certain that 1-0 suited both teams and Austria, at least, would have tried to score. Specifically, Algeria were winning their final game 3-0 at one stage, which would have put Austria out on goal difference. In the end, they only won 3-2, so Austria knew exactly how many they could afford to lose by before their game started.

 

[Howe_zat]

Also this format is pretty questionable but it's actually the better of two international football tournaments on right now. Copa America has two groups of five with the top four going through to the quarter-finals. So 20 matches in they'll have only eliminated two sides. Brazil are through with two games to spare.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Also this format is pretty questionable but it's actually the better of two international football tournaments on right now. Copa America has two groups of five with the top four going through to the quarter-finals. So 20 matches in they'll have only eliminated two sides. Brazil are through with two games to spare.

Tbf they play for seeding in the knockouts. (Also for the cash grab, but a four-team knockout feels pretty short)

 

[Furball]

Also this format is pretty questionable but it's actually the better of two international football tournaments on right now. Copa America has two groups of five with the top four going through to the quarter-finals. So 20 matches in they'll have only eliminated two sides. Brazil are through with two games to spare.

Isn't this partly because the tournament is smaller? The Copa America usually has 12 teams with 2 invited guests, who presumably this year have declined due to the COVID situation?

 

[Furball]

It's not even active collusion that causes issues. Usually it's just that it's even after 75 minutes and the two sets of tired players obviously have no interest in attacking.

Yeah I'd agree with this, the only time I've seen this sort of collusion on the pitch was Hibs v Rangers on the last day of the 2004/05 season. Rangers needed to win to have any chance of snatching the title from Celtic, whereas Hibs were guaranteed Europe unless there was a massive goal difference swing towards Aberdeen (essentially don't get thumped on the last day and you'll qualify.) Rangers were 1-0 up going into the last 10 minutes, which suited both teams, so the last 10 minutes just ended up being the Rangers defence passing between themselves unchallenged.

 

[speirz]

Isn't this partly because the tournament is smaller? The Copa America usually has 12 teams with 2 invited guests, who presumably this year have declined due to the COVID situation?

Yeah Australia and Qatar withdrew.

 

[andruid]

I feel head to head just should not be used in a group stage where teams are only playing each other once, even when that once is a neutral venue.

 

[GIMH]

I feel head to head just should not be used in a group stage where teams are only playing each other once, even when that once is a neutral venue.

Quite a lot in this tournament aren't neutral too.

 

[Furball]

Somehow UEFA are making themselves look even more like dicks over this rainbow argument they're having with the German FA.

UEFA even have an Equal Game campaign yet are trying to prevent a national FA from showing support to a historically marginalised community.

 

[Uppercut]

It's the most UEFA thing ever. No to Racism unless there are any racists present that we don't want to offend.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah, I mean pointing out that football governance stinks is the dictionary definition of shooting fish in a barrel, but wafer somehow never fail to live down to themselves.

Wafer "believes the gesture has a political context." If that context is that discrimination is bad, then, yes. Yes it does.

Usually be supporting the Magyars, but hope Jerry smashes them, frankly.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah, I mean pointing out that football governance stinks is the dictionary definition of shooting fish in a barrel, but wafer somehow never fail to live down to themselves.

Wafer "believes the gesture has a political context." If that context is that discrimination is bad, then, yes. Yes it does.

Usually be supporting the Magyars, but hope Jerry smashes them, frankly.

I was going to make some sarcastic comment about the retro 1930s black shirts favoured by the Hungarian fans being so stylish .....
but couldn't be arsed.

As you say, lets hope the Germans score truckloads.

 

[Furball]

It's the most UEFA thing ever. No to Racism unless there are any racists present that we don't want to offend.

No to Racism*

*Unless you're an Armenian midfielder looking to play for your club at a UEFA final in Baku. Then it's ok.

 

[mr_mister]

4 groups of 6 would be better with the top 2 teams advancing to quarter finals. Two extra group games but one less KO game would make for an only slightly longer tournament.

I'm a big believer in the group stages being more important than they are currently in the euros. Loved the last cricket WC for example.

So dumb that a group stage only cuts a third of the comp. It should always be half at the minimum or ideally greater than half

 

[Howe_zat]

I'd rate that format more than this one, though with only 2/6 qualifying you'd get teams knocked out with two games to play and a lot of bottom-table dead matches in the last round.

You could add a play-off round for the 2nd and 3rd placed teams to join the winners in the quarter finals, but the organisers don't want the big teams to skip games.

I think dead rubbers with eliminated teams trumps one with progressing teams though. A game with minnows playing for pride in their last game is more interesting than top sides not really trying because they're already through.