-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
English sport in meltdown
- Thread starter BoyBrumby
- Start date
steds
Hall of Fame Member
I read a theory about Stuart Fielden on a rugby league forum after the Saints - Wigan derby on Good Friday, that set me thinking. For those of you not too familiar with Fielden's career, he was being heralded, up here atleast, as perhaps the best prop forward in the world, then he signed for Wigan last August and his form completely disappeared. The theory was basically that Fielden has played non-stop top flight rugby league since he was 18 and is burnt out. It prompted me to wonder how much of England's direness at sports is down to the poor management what talent we have at out disposal.
For example, there were perhaps four British rugby league players who came through in the 90s and could be described as up amongst the best in the world - Jason Robinson, Keiron Cunningham, Paul Sculthorpe and Fielden. It could be argued all four were over-exposed as teenagers. As a result, Cunningham and Sculthorpe, forwards like Fielden, have both had a spell or 3 or 4 consecutive seasons in which they haven't been fit for the vast majority of that time and have looked a shadow of their previous selves for the rest of it. Sculthorpe still doesn't look fit.
In association football, Michael Owen, who became an England regular at 18, is arguably in the same boat as Cunningham and Sculthorpe were, having played a whole 11 league games in almost 2 seasons at Newcastle. England's only other forward of note, Wayne Rooney, was an international at 17 and was forced into the position were he was basically carrying the England side when he was still in his teens. He has also been spoiled rotten, which is another thing that happens to young players in socey.
England's cricket side has a long and proud tradition of randomly throwing players who haven't proved themselves in county cricket straight into their side - Andrew Flintoff, Chris Read, Chris Schofield, Simon Jones, James Anderson, Sajid Mahmood, Liam Plunkett, etc. I'm no expert on union, but the picking and dropping of 18 year old Mathew Tait in 2005 suggests something similar to me.
It occurs to me that not only does England produce much talent compared to rival countries in various sports, but also that the people within those sporting systems responsible for them have very little clue when it comes to judging whether the players they produce are physically and/or mentally mature enough to be at the top level.
This post is probably non-sensical and pretty useless, but it wasted a couple of hours for me.
For example, there were perhaps four British rugby league players who came through in the 90s and could be described as up amongst the best in the world - Jason Robinson, Keiron Cunningham, Paul Sculthorpe and Fielden. It could be argued all four were over-exposed as teenagers. As a result, Cunningham and Sculthorpe, forwards like Fielden, have both had a spell or 3 or 4 consecutive seasons in which they haven't been fit for the vast majority of that time and have looked a shadow of their previous selves for the rest of it. Sculthorpe still doesn't look fit.
In association football, Michael Owen, who became an England regular at 18, is arguably in the same boat as Cunningham and Sculthorpe were, having played a whole 11 league games in almost 2 seasons at Newcastle. England's only other forward of note, Wayne Rooney, was an international at 17 and was forced into the position were he was basically carrying the England side when he was still in his teens. He has also been spoiled rotten, which is another thing that happens to young players in socey.
England's cricket side has a long and proud tradition of randomly throwing players who haven't proved themselves in county cricket straight into their side - Andrew Flintoff, Chris Read, Chris Schofield, Simon Jones, James Anderson, Sajid Mahmood, Liam Plunkett, etc. I'm no expert on union, but the picking and dropping of 18 year old Mathew Tait in 2005 suggests something similar to me.
It occurs to me that not only does England produce much talent compared to rival countries in various sports, but also that the people within those sporting systems responsible for them have very little clue when it comes to judging whether the players they produce are physically and/or mentally mature enough to be at the top level.
This post is probably non-sensical and pretty useless, but it wasted a couple of hours for me.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
It's an interesting thought for me, actually. Players like Owen & Rooney both seem to have plateaued off in terms of performance very early in their careers. Both were nudging world-class at 18 & neither has come close to replicating that form since.
There is a case to be made that the demands of our domestic competitions royally tool up our national side. The Super League has a longer season than the NRL (despite 4 fewer clubs), the Zurich Premiership carries on during the Six Nations & if a young player plays for a moderately successful club in football the chances are he'll be looking at possibly upwards of 50+ games per year. By the time our players come to compete with other national sides they’re already knackered.
WRT Fielden my personal thought is that he needs to be tested again. I think he went to Wigan for the money & took a step down in terms of playing ambition. He was talking about testing himself in the NRL before he moved, for mine that's what he needs to do now.
There is a case to be made that the demands of our domestic competitions royally tool up our national side. The Super League has a longer season than the NRL (despite 4 fewer clubs), the Zurich Premiership carries on during the Six Nations & if a young player plays for a moderately successful club in football the chances are he'll be looking at possibly upwards of 50+ games per year. By the time our players come to compete with other national sides they’re already knackered.
WRT Fielden my personal thought is that he needs to be tested again. I think he went to Wigan for the money & took a step down in terms of playing ambition. He was talking about testing himself in the NRL before he moved, for mine that's what he needs to do now.
Neil Pickup
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Will be interesting to see what happens to Andy Murray.
Jungle Jumbo
International Vice-Captain
Just a thought, probably easily countered...
Brazilian footballers, at least before most of them played in Europe, would play a whole national league championship, a whole state championship (which in Rio or Sao Paulo is as big as a normal league), the Brazilian cup, plus Copa Libertadores ties. From a very young age, as well.
Who has won the most World Cups?
Brazilian footballers, at least before most of them played in Europe, would play a whole national league championship, a whole state championship (which in Rio or Sao Paulo is as big as a normal league), the Brazilian cup, plus Copa Libertadores ties. From a very young age, as well.
Who has won the most World Cups?
steds
Hall of Fame Member
Three things sprang to mind pretty quickly. First is that I've read/heard more than once that the English game is quicker and more physical than elsewhere in the world (wouldn't really know myself. It's too bloody slow for me even if it is quicker), which would take more out of someone who hasn't fully matured physically yet.
Second is the money aspect. I said in my previous post that socey players are spoiled. English players can make a good living from being an average player. I'm guessing that in Brazil, the same amount of money isn't there, so they'd have to aspire to be better to make a good career in Europe and earn similar amounts.
Third, I suppose being technically superior always helps.
Matteh
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The South American teams sort of have a load of money, but it's in the hands of some dodgy people. Most obvious example being the Tevez/Mascherano thing.
Highest paid earners in the Premiership are getting £100,000 a week, it wouldn't be anything like that in South America.
Our league is certainly one of the more physical leagues as you can tell when players for English teams get booked in European games for challenges which would be fine in the Premiership.
Highest paid earners in the Premiership are getting £100,000 a week, it wouldn't be anything like that in South America.
Our league is certainly one of the more physical leagues as you can tell when players for English teams get booked in European games for challenges which would be fine in the Premiership.
Great Birtannia
U19 Captain
Warne and McGrath would be lucky to have played 15 FC games between them before they were selected for Australia.
Following on from Brumby, the fixture congestion is crazy in England. In the AFL, coaches whinge like little bitches about having 6 day breaks between games. Fair enough it is a more physically demanding game and rotation is largely non-existant but in the premier league teams play 4 games in 6 days over the christmas period, that is just crazy.
Last edited:
dontcloseyoureyes
BARNES OUT
Fielden could be massive if he came to the NRL. Would love to see it.
Matteh
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Didn't Vettori have like 2 before playing for NZ?
BoyBrumby
Englishman
As much as I've enjoyed the divine madness of the past 4 weeks, I wouldn't call it a solid blueprint for success leading up to 2011.
& The football seems to have been turned around in almost as haphazard a way too; if Rooney & Fat Frank hadn't been crocked when they were we could be well staring down the barrell instead of being semi-quietly confident of qualification now.
Agent TBY
International Captain
Pointless digs.What are you on about Brumby, Rugby team in the WC Final, footy team poised to qualify for Euro 08 and the Cricket team has just won sucessive ODI series. Oh, and we may well soon have the F1 World Champion as well. English sport is doing just fine
Agent TBY
International Captain
I guess Richard had the right idea when he started the entire (Yes, this) business.Not really...
The idea of the dig was to show that somehow things look a lot rosier now. I thought that was obvious...
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Post reported. Richard's never had the right idea about anything, ever and it's borderline libel to suggest otherwise.
Neil Pickup
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Genuine LOL.Post reported. Richard's never had the right idea about anything, ever and it's borderline libel to suggest otherwise.