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England thread

Ashes81

State Vice-Captain
That's not true at all is it though. In ODI cricket this year Roy averages 46 and Malan 62. T20 shouldn't really be an indicator.

Malan Roy and Brook will all be in India anyway so this is moot. One might be a travelling reserve or may all be in the squad with one less seamer in it.

I think Livingstone/Ali as the second/third spinner. Also your 6 and 7 is more concerning than our top order.

They are going under the radar cos of Brook. Brook would be in the side at 4 and Stokes at 5, if Stokes could bowl anyway. Then you wouldn't need one of Livingstone or Ali.
Both Malan and Roy have fine ODI records but one of them will probably have to give way to Brook and my guess would be Roy.

He was very hit and miss in both Bangladesh and South Africa earlier this year - a century in each series but little else.

I don't think you can ignore Malan's poor form in the T20s - a different format but he really struggled.

I'd take Malan but if it is a choice between Brook or Roy, it's Brook for me.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah. i'm pretty worried about a few of them, but let's play the form that the world cup will be played before we worry.
 

Owzat

U19 Captain
Both Malan and Roy have fine ODI records but one of them will probably have to give way to Brook and my guess would be Roy.

He was very hit and miss in both Bangladesh and South Africa earlier this year - a century in each series but little else.

I don't think you can ignore Malan's poor form in the T20s - a different format but he really struggled.

I'd take Malan but if it is a choice between Brook or Roy, it's Brook for me.
someone on beeb HYS was slating Malan, whilst Root has played more ODIs so a more solid average (50) Malan averages 54 in ODIs, over less games, and the criticism was at his SR which is better than Root's.............. (neither over 100 but don't need everyone to score SR 100 all the time to get eg 300+)

Roy averaged 38.33 last time in India and is the opener of the three, Malan has but not convinced if he's a shoe in - if anything I'd suspect Roy and Brook but never know.

I doubt Carse, Hain, Overton, Potts, Scrimshaw, Smith and Wood are going to WC yet in the squad for the repubteam of Ireland games.

provisional squad
Jonny Bairstow
Jason Roy
Jos Buttler (captain)
Dawid Malan
Ben Stokes
Joe Root
Liam Livingstone

Moeen Ali
Sam Curran
Chris Woakes

Adil Rashid
David Willey
Mark Wood
Gus Atkinson
Reece Topley

in a rough kind of batting order, surprisingly light on all round, not sure unless pitches are far more seamer friendly than one might expect that having pretty much non-batting quicks is not brilliant unless they'll be effective and thus bowl their 10 most times. Not wanting to shave Willey from the squad as he can bat I'd toss up between GA and RT.

Then you can add Brook, I think Root and maybe some overs from Stokes and Livingstone give plenty of fill in options, what I wouldn't want to see is a line up with 2-3 quicks bowling about 20 overs between them and having to fill 10 in by said part-timers anyway!
 

Nicky

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
England have 4 ODIs against NZ, 3 against Ireland, 1 against India & 1 against Bangladesh before the World Cup. That's plenty of time to try if the Roy & Bairstow duo is still effective :) If not, Malan is there!
 

Owzat

U19 Captain
Ben Stokes: England Test captain has 'very good plan' for knee injury - BBC Sport

not sure when something like your knee, back, whatever "goes" big time that you go long spells without being able to play a full part as a bowler that you can just find a fix and be back to what you were.

maybe he needs to focus on being a deadly batsman and if the World Cup doesn't require 3+ quicks which I doubt it will then he can be a few overs if needed and play a spin all-rounder and back up options instead. Be far more worrying if he couldn't bat or field, if he can do both then moaners about his inclusion can STFU, he's worthy of inclusion on those grounds alone
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
I still think that England will have a better cricket WC than rugby one. But we increasingly look like a side that's a couple of year past its sell-by.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I still think that England will have a better cricket WC than rugby one. But we increasingly look like a side that's a couple of year past its sell-by.
Increasingly? Are you sure about this? One bad game makes it seem an early call to me

Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes show no signs of deteriorating with the bat. Malan has a great recent record and Brook is Brook.

Roy I am concerned about, and I suppose you could have been talking about the bowling. But let’s see how the rest of the series goes
 

Owzat

U19 Captain
I still think that England will have a better cricket WC than rugby one. But we increasingly look like a side that's a couple of year past its sell-by.
don't think there's much doubt re better world cup than eggball, that lot have been pretty poor in home nations contests and you throw in southern hemisphere and it would be a shock - would be if anyone outside said southern hemisphere won it - only four teams ever have I believe, said region (NZL AUS SAF) and England, ONCE wasn't it?



Anyway I think they are tinkering too much with the side last few games in both shorter formats, and other factors. I think being in India they need to get their squad right, too many quicks for my money, even if you 'need'/play 3-4 you don't need 6, just a sign they ain't got a scooby doo who their best ODI bowlers are



3rd T20I - Livingstone tonked, Rashid not a lot better, not enough wickets to create pressure. Still not a massive target, Malan scratched around and got out so wasted balls getting in, Brook didn't last long enough, very ordinary 8-11 and as I think I forecast at the time Ali didn't get the 70 off 30 or whatever might have won the day but a 20-30 - noone faced more than 21 balls (Buttler with 40 runs) and you can't keep losing wickets and expect to chase or even put on a target.

4th T20I - Jacks experiment ought to have been Jacksed in, Bairstow apart those who got in didn't go on and Brook failed along with Ali. Need to bowl pretty well to defend a lowish total, only Ahmed did

1st ODI - not sure Brook opening was a good idea, if he plays in India he won't open surely not, 80/0 to 101/3 was the problem batting wise, Root then taking up a lot of balls to get in but out cheaply nonetheless, with Stokes and Buttler scoring at around 5 an over which isn't bad but left them a few runs shy. Bowling was poor, don't get wickets, unlikely to win many for all the theories some put out about ER.

Peas poor tail, Willey, Rashid, Topley, Atkinson, for what bowling that gives and batting it doesn't either. Wouldn't want any higher than 9 max, not sure what that was about, hoping they'd show form ahead of the World Cup.


I'd completely rethink the England squad, only about half for me or max 2/3 should be shoe ins.

take for sure (7) :
Buttler
Bairstow
Roy - regardless what is usually said to criticise, he has scored two hundreds in his last six innings, both in 2023 and averages 55.83 in India, SR 118.37
Curran
Stokes
Rashid
Malan

Probables (3) :
Ali - brief cameos with bat, doesn't really take enough wickets and has a poor record in ODIs in India with ball - 1/236, ER 5.88 not exactly way above par either as in not that impressive either

Woakes - serious doubt he'll be any more effective overseas than before - 8 wickets at 35.50 in India in ODIs (ER 6.17)

Root - controversial but he is a little too conservative, may average 50 but at the cost of much in the way of scoring pace in a few too many games. Last 20 ODIs only THREE scores at a run a ball or more, NINE at less than 55 SR including three ducks and 7 off 30, 1 off 11, 11 off 21 and 6 off 15. Maintains his average with not outs, 3 in said 20 innings.

(big or small) question marks (5) :
Wood - fitness and also do England need this many quicks? (at least he is something different ie fast, and can bat a bit)
Topley - unconvincing, been playing for many years but only 22 caps
Willey - unconvinced across the years in spite of 60+ caps,selected more than perhaps merited and this is India
Atkinson - hit the ground running in the T20Is but no real batting and not enough ODI experience
Livingstone - is he a better option than Brook? Is he being selected by reputation of big hitter AND can bowl a bit, too much as we saw in one T20I and the ODI
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Increasingly? Are you sure about this? One bad game makes it seem an early call to me

Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes show no signs of deteriorating with the bat. Malan has a great recent record and Brook is Brook.

Roy I am concerned about, and I suppose you could have been talking about the bowling. But let’s see how the rest of the series goes
Yeah, absolutely about the bowling, and no sane person would suggest otherwise. Think back four years when we had Archer, Plunkett in the side, and Rashid & Moeen still in their pomp. Obviously Wood will be an upgrade on last night. Curran's an interesting one. Is his 50 over track record as strong as in T20s? Genuine question, as I have nfi. And presumably Stokes was bowling at the last WC too. Woakes was streets ahead of the rest of the seamers last night, but we all know what happens when he plays overseas.

The batting is interesting. I was thinking about how we went through a phase when, if memory serves, we used to rack up 350+ as a matter of course. Now I'll be the first to admit that my memory may not actually be serving me very well, but we just don't seem to be as powerful with the bat as we were. Thinking about it more carefully, I realise that Root and Stokes haven't played all that many ODIs lately, which would have something to do with it. Beyond that, we all know about Roy. I'm not sure about Malan in this WC unless sides play fewer spinners in India that anyone expects. Perhaps he'll be OK, but I'm concerned that he'll get bogged down against the slower stuff. Buttler's an interesting one. Obviously he did well yesterday, but I wonder if he's quite as great as he was. I think that Root will be absolutely crucual if we're going to make the scores in this WC.

Beyond all that, how is our track record in ODIs over the last couple of years? And please don't include the freebies in The Netherlands. And again, it's a genuine question as I don't remember these things as well as I'd like to. But I don't think we've been as invincible as we looked going into the last WC. Of course, I also recognise that we're rarely seen our best XI in the park, so fair do's in that regard.
 

Red_Ink_Squid

Global Moderator
Beyond all that, how is our track record in ODIs over the last couple of years? And please don't include the freebies in The Netherlands. And again, it's a genuine question as I don't remember these things as well as I'd like to. But I don't think we've been as invincible as we looked going into the last WC. Of course, I also recognise that we're rarely seen our best XI in the park, so fair do's in that regard
Without checking, I think it's very average.

Not played many series, haven't won all that many we have played. Would be surprised if our win/loss is better than ~50% excluding minnows.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I think it's a problem that so many are injury-prone ATM, amongst the batsmen as well as bowlers, Livingstone is 30 now, only played 13 matches, for instance. So even if their form has or not dropped off is a bit immaterial, if they can't get on thepitch or when they do they're not as fit as they can be, it's surely a big detriment, and why we're clearly not as good as we were. Since Morgan retied 5 wins, 0 losses

Having said that, if I was to do an all-time England 50 0ver time, good chance, Roy, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Root all get in and possibly Rashid. So maybe there's a wild geese thing that happens.

Still even if we win I hope we start using the 4 year cycle to refresh, and hopefully a few will retire and the team against Ireland can be a template, and let's not forget Pope, it's been an odd time, franchises and covid, that many of our test players just haven't played in the format much.
 

Nicky

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I think the ideal XI would be :
Roy, Bairstow, Malan, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Livingstone, Woakes, Rashid, Atkinson/Curran, Topley
 

mackembhoy

International Regular
I think the ideal XI would be :
Roy, Bairstow, Malan, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Livingstone, Woakes, Rashid, Atkinson/Curran, Topley
Won't happen they'd pick Brook at 5 if we were going to only go with the 5 bowlers + Root

They will want 6 bowlers and so it's whether Malan is replacing Roy/Bairstow or Root at this stage. Or he's harshly 12th man.

Can't see Wood not playing if he's fit too.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Back spasms are not something to go away, not sure they can justify roy over Malan if he doesn't play much before world cup, personally I'd seriously think of ditching him, putting Crawley in the squad wouldn't be something I'd hate,but we'll see.
 

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