England players and selection discussion thread

[honestbharani]

We've been told for years on end that English county trundlers aren't quick enough to take wickets outside England. Hence we put our faith in the likes of Archer and Wood while lots of bowlers with outstanding domestic records have never played for England, from Glen Chapple to Jamie Porter. Yet people like Vernon Philander, Kemar Roach, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Mohammad Abbas and Shardul Thakur have been taking wickets for fun bowling at 130kph, and the most promising new England bowler in recent years has been Robinson who is much the same. I get why you don't want to have four identical medium-fast trundlers in side, but I do wonder sometimes if our obsession with unearthing the next Frank Tyson is a bit unhelpful.

The thing is the guys you mentioned have to do a lot more than just trundle in and float the ball with swing to get their wickets in their home conditions. I agree you cant pre-judge bowlers based on their bowling style but at the same time, I really dont think the skillsets of those guys you mentioned is what the standard county trundler has.

 

[Blenkinsop]

Not saying the average county trundler could be a top international bowler. But the best county trundlers do exactly what say Philander did, or Shaun Pollock before him -- they're super accurate and they land it on the seam. Sure, not all of them will make the step up, but it baffles me that we won't consider picking Porter or Cook and yet apparently someone like George Garton is seriously considered an international prospect just because he has "something different".

 

[ImpatientLime]

how many of them are "super accurate" as you suggest tho?

coverton has been arguably the best seamer in the cc for the past few years. he fits the MO in terms of pace and he was pretty scattergun versus the west indies.

most of these lads just benefit from extremely helpful conditions for seam bowling.

there are exceptions obviously. cook is getting good reviews. I've watched a lot of bamber who is very impressive and robinson has it all but fitness.

 

[grecian]

how many of them are "super accurate" as you suggest tho?

coverton has been arguably the best seamer in the cc for the past few years. he fits the MO in terms of pace and he was pretty scattergun versus the west indies.

most of these lads just benefit from extremely helpful conditions for seam bowling.

there are exceptions obviously. cook is getting good reviews. I've watched a lot of bamber who is very impressive and robinson has it all but fitness.

Yep, no-one I can think of is anything like the accuracy of McGrath, Philander, Bumrah or Pollock, unless you go down to about 120 MPH bowlers, like well Darren Stevens, and I don't think we will be picking him.

Robinson does seem to have it, and he's been picked when he can stop being a lazy racist bastard.

 

[Manee]

I doubt you'll see much of Joverton on a cricket pitch much at all, let alone at the top level. Coverton is a perfect illustration of the massive gap between domestic and international cricket.

Harsh on Coverton, I think he just needs to get it a bit fuller in Test cricket to be more threatening, imo. The economy will suffer but I think he could find success. He just needs to adapt from being pretty quick for County to very medium pace for Tests.

 

[Manee]

Yep, no-one I can think of is anything like the accuracy of McGrath, Philander, Bumrah or Pollock, unless you go down to about 120 MPH bowlers, like well Darren Stevens, and I don't think we will be picking him.

Robinson does seem to have it, and he's been picked when he can stop being a lazy racist bastard.

120kph very kind for Stevens.

 

[Manee]

Leach hasn't let England down really. And there hasn't been many Tests that have favoured two spinners recently. The first two Tests in WI were just roads. They weren't spin friendly and Parkinson may have found that tough. England are in Pakistan this Winter so both will play, you'd hope.

Leach never lets-down but rarely steps-up and stands-up above the rest. I think England need a spinner who can take 5-fers

 

[Manee]

We've been told for years on end that English county trundlers aren't quick enough to take wickets outside England. Hence we put our faith in the likes of Archer and Wood while lots of bowlers with outstanding domestic records have never played for England, from Glen Chapple to Jamie Porter. Yet people like Vernon Philander, Kemar Roach, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Mohammad Abbas and Shardul Thakur have been taking wickets for fun bowling at 130kph, and the most promising new England bowler in recent years has been Robinson who is much the same. I get why you don't want to have four identical medium-fast trundlers in a side, but I do wonder sometimes if our obsession with unearthing the next Frank Tyson is a bit unhelpful.

I remember watching Chapple in one of his last seasons and he was bowling 87mph+. He was certainly not slow. I think this is a good point to make. However, I just think the bowling is a bit of a non-issue for England - it is the batting which feels in a very poor state.

 

[kevinw]

Leach never lets-down but rarely steps-up and stands-up above the rest. I think England need a spinner who can take 5-fers

Leach has only played five home tests in the Summer of 2019 and bowled well enough. Most of his tests are away, and he hasn't done well in Australia and NZ but many spinners struggle. His record in Asia and the WI is decent and he played a huge part in two series wins in SL. Yes, he isn't a world class spinner but he's good enough to be at Maharaj or Harmer's level. Parkinson may be a better option but we shouldn't write off Leach's contributions.

 

[Manee]

Leach has only played five home tests in the Summer of 2019 and bowled well enough. Most of his tests are away, and he hasn't done well in Australia and NZ but many spinners struggle. His record in Asia and the WI is decent and he played a huge part in two series wins in SL. Yes, he isn't a world class spinner but he's good enough to be at Maharaj or Harmer's level. Parkinson may be a better option but we shouldn't write off Leach's contributions.

Agree - I think I really just want to see Parkinson play. Everything you said above makes sense, to be fair.

 

[Blenkinsop]

how many of them are "super accurate" as you suggest tho?

coverton has been arguably the best seamer in the cc for the past few years. he fits the MO in terms of pace and he was pretty scattergun versus the west indies.

most of these lads just benefit from extremely helpful conditions for seam bowling.

there are exceptions obviously. cook is getting good reviews. I've watched a lot of bamber who is very impressive and robinson has it all but fitness.

Obviously they're not all super accurate but I'd argue the ones who consistently take 40-50 wickets a season at averages in the low 20s are. Ben Sanderson is a good example. He'll never play for England because he bowls 125kph and is in his thirties, but since returning to the first class game he has something like 280 wickets at an average of 21. And of course he cashes in when the wicket does a bit, but he's not shabby on flat pitches either. Tim Murtagh would be another. These guys very rarely bowl loose balls.

Coverton is a conundrum. Apart from maybe one test in the India series he just hasn't bowled nearly as well in international cricket as he has for Somerset. Those pitches in the Windies should have suited him IMO but his radar went awry. By contrast, Robinson just took it in his stride and kept on doing what he did for Sussex and it worked.

Bamber does look excellent whenever I've seen him, though possibly more of a swing bowler than some of these others.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Sam Cook would be a really good option for this coming summer imo. Just from watching him quite often, he looks an excellent new ball bowler. He definitely looks like he could make early inroads at test level and trouble good batsman. Super consistent, repeatable well-grooved action and moves it both ways.

Bowls that lovely length where he 'kisses' the surface. Skiddy medium-fast I'd say, probably in the 78-82mph range

Bamber is great to watch and a bit of a throwback in being a genuine medium-paced swing bowler. His control and skill level is very high but he's probably around 72-75mph which probably isn't going to open doors for higher honours (yet)

 

[tooextracool]

I actually just don't see how Leach does enough in the air to be a threat in most places/conditions in world cricket. Even on turning pitches, good players will be able to score runs off him as we saw in India because there is little guile in his bowling. I think he might serve better as a second spinner when the conditions call for it/bring him in the game rather than being a regular member of the side.

 

[superkingdave]

Obviously they're not all super accurate but I'd argue the ones who consistently take 40-50 wickets a season at averages in the low 20s are. Ben Sanderson is a good example. He'll never play for England because he bowls 125kph and is in his thirties, but since returning to the first class game he has something like 280 wickets at an average of 21. And of course he cashes in when the wicket does a bit, but he's not shabby on flat pitches either. Tim Murtagh would be another. These guys very rarely bowl loose balls.

Coverton is a conundrum. Apart from maybe one test in the India series he just hasn't bowled nearly as well in international cricket as he has for Somerset. Those pitches in the Windies should have suited him IMO but his radar went awry. By contrast, Robinson just took it in his stride and kept on doing what he did for Sussex and it worked.

Bamber does look excellent whenever I've seen him, though possibly more of a swing bowler than some of these others.

I mean Tom Bailey has about 170 wickets at 17 over the past 4 years but really doubt he would be any where close to being test standard.

 

[jayjay]

England have a decent core of bowlers if fit with Mahmood, Archer, Wood, Overton, Woakes and Stokes...what they really need is a world class spinner and at least one batsman who knows how to hold ab at other than Root.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

England have given up on getting any coach they actually wanted and are inviting applications for separate red and white ball coaches.

 

[honestbharani]

England have given up on getting any coach they actually wanted and are inviting applications for separate red and white ball coaches.

This may well be true but I think Rob Key was always of the opinion that you need different coaches for red and white ball games. So you maybe a tad unfair on Key here.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

This may well be true but I think Rob Key was always of the opinion that you need different coaches for red and white ball games. So you maybe a tad unfair on Key here.

I’m not blaming Rob Key for anything (though he is a prat). I’m just saying that no one who was approached wanted the job so they’re advertising.

 

[ImpatientLime]

ben stokes to be announced captain this week according to reports.

rock and a hard place and all that but can't help feel this is a poor decision.

 

[morgieb]

Yeah it feels like Stokes will get the gig because he's the only other person guaranteed a spot in the side at full fitness, but I think it'll end it tears.