England is number 1 cuz they poached the best players from other countries not fair

[cpr]

This is getting way off topic and ultimately you can't stop players playing for whoever they prefer, as long as they qualify...but what really bothers me here is that the New Zealand rugby league team got decimated a couple of years ago by several first-choice players who were born and raised in NZ, choosing to play for Tonga. Tonga went into a world cup with almost an entire squad of players who had never lived in Tonga.

You get the same thing in Union and it's mostly the UK who whinge about it. Players born and raised in New Zealand who supposedly should be playing for Samoa/Tonga/Fiji on heritage grounds. NZ actually gets low-key accused of foul play for stacking their team with brown people from New Zealand.

I was really pissed about the Tonga thing but if I dared to suggest that maybe these guys should be playing for the country they were actually from, I was highly likely to be called racist. So basically, if you say a brown guy raised in New Zealand is really of some other nationality, you're racist. But if you say that they are really a New Zealander, you're also racist.

I wouldn't worry about getting off-topic in a ****show of a thread like this. Off topic is saving everyone really.

But it's an odd one, if I was a top class footballer for example, I'd be a bit torn between England and Ireland. England is my country of birth, and I'd say now I've a level of pride in being able to represent them, but growing up my families Irish heritage was a key factor in my upbringing and shaped me to some extent, as it did for many of my friends too. As teenagers in school we'd divide our football teams into English and Irish for that reason, despite most of us being raised in England. Possibly that might've swung me at a young age, and I can appreciate why Declan Rice has got himself into a bit of bother over his allegiance.
Ultimately if I was to wait to make the choice, in hindsight i'd choose the country who's level I fit, because I'd put the desire to play more over the allegiance of nation X.

In cricket if England was out of the window I'd have joined all the Aussie imports over in the Ireland OD team, them getting Test status in my mid 30s would be a beacon call to for sure.

I don't take issue with much surrounding this whole thing but the amount of England's best bats in the 2000s who were South African as biltong was a complete joke

Many of them weren't really South African though, in that so many of them were raised from a young age in the UK - Strauss, Prior, Roy, Meaker, they all headed over here before they were teenagers for non-cricket reasons, so it's understanable that they consider themselves English in cricketing terms as this is where they shaped their game.

It's got to be noted that cricket does tend to pull from a different class than football and some other sports, a class that's more economically mobile than lower classes, and travel between English speaking nations for work is a bit more prevalent. Then of course there's those with ties to cricket, which again unlike football see's English travelling a fair bit - Michael Lumb being a decent example, although a saffie by birth and raising, his dad was a Yorkshire opener who married a saffie woman.

Just looking at someones country of birth and presuming their nationality is a bit more of a grey area than in other sports we judge cricket by.

 

[SteveNZ]

England and New Zealand attract a lot of imports because they're cultured, enjoyable places to live. Hence why Australia generally has 10 or 11 home-grown players in their side.

 

[Burgey]

No one knows where NZ is tbf. The only culture there is in the yoghurt.

 

[Test_Fan_Only]

And the Hollioakes, Craig White, Alan Mullally, Martin McCague, Geraint Jones, Tim Ambrose and Darren Pattinson.

Darren Pattinson was born in England.
Geraint Jones in Papau New Guinea

 

[mr_mister]

I wouldn't worry about getting off-topic in a ****show of a thread like this. Off topic is saving everyone really.

But it's an odd one, if I was a top class footballer for example, I'd be a bit torn between England and Ireland. England is my country of birth, and I'd say now I've a level of pride in being able to represent them, but growing up my families Irish heritage was a key factor in my upbringing and shaped me to some extent, as it did for many of my friends too. As teenagers in school we'd divide our football teams into English and Irish for that reason, despite most of us being raised in England. Possibly that might've swung me at a young age, and I can appreciate why Declan Rice has got himself into a bit of bother over his allegiance.
Ultimately if I was to wait to make the choice, in hindsight i'd choose the country who's level I fit, because I'd put the desire to play more over the allegiance of nation X.

In cricket if England was out of the window I'd have joined all the Aussie imports over in the Ireland OD team, them getting Test status in my mid 30s would be a beacon call to for sure.



Many of them weren't really South African though, in that so many of them were raised from a young age in the UK - Strauss, Prior, Roy, Meaker, they all headed over here before they were teenagers for non-cricket reasons, so it's understanable that they consider themselves English in cricketing terms as this is where they shaped their game.

It's got to be noted that cricket does tend to pull from a different class than football and some other sports, a class that's more economically mobile than lower classes, and travel between English speaking nations for work is a bit more prevalent. Then of course there's those with ties to cricket, which again unlike football see's English travelling a fair bit - Michael Lumb being a decent example, although a saffie by birth and raising, his dad was a Yorkshire opener who married a saffie woman.

Just looking at someones country of birth and presuming their nationality is a bit more of a grey area than in other sports we judge cricket by.

Trott and Pietersen though. I don't even know who the hell Meaker is

 

[SteveNZ]

No one knows where NZ is tbf. The only culture there is in the yoghurt.

The mini-America shtick that Australia runs with is hilarious. Although I think it's unintentional. Wouldn't surprise me if more than 7% of Australians thought chocolate milk was from brown cows as well.

 

[Burgey]

Not surprising to find a New Zealander with intimate knowledge of livestock tbh.

 

[mr_mister]

You walked into that one Steve

 

[Chewie]

I probably shouldn't be playing for Asia in Cricsim

 

[SteveNZ]

Not surprising to find a New Zealander with intimate knowledge of livestock tbh.

It's the backbone of our GDP, why wouldn't I be?

 

[mr_mister]

Dirty deeds!

Done with sheep!

Classic

 

[Starfighter]

Darren Pattinson was born in England.
Geraint Jones in Papau New Guinea

May as well add that White and Mullally were born in England and McCague in Ireland while you're at it.

 

[trundler]

Who else though "**** off Sledger" at first before looking at the join date

 

[thierry henry]

But it's an odd one, if I was a top class footballer for example, I'd be a bit torn between England and Ireland. England is my country of birth, and I'd say now I've a level of pride in being able to represent them, but growing up my families Irish heritage was a key factor in my upbringing and shaped me to some extent, as it did for many of my friends too. As teenagers in school we'd divide our football teams into English and Irish for that reason, despite most of us being raised in England.

Absolutely, and it would be much the same as being part of the Tongan community in Auckland. I fully understand identifying with a heritage/ethnicity/culture that sets you apart from the country you are actually in, but to consider that as MORE significant than the country you are actually in just seems perverse to me. I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that these are selections based on nationality, not culture or ethnicity.

Ultimately if I was to wait to make the choice, in hindsight i'd choose the country who's level I fit, because I'd put the desire to play more over the allegiance of nation X.

In cricket if England was out of the window I'd have joined all the Aussie imports over in the Ireland OD team, them getting Test status in my mid 30s would be a beacon call to for sure.

Absolutely, I fully understand guys who opt to play for their "secondary" nationality at the international level because that's what enables them to play at that level. When elite players have the option, and make what appears to be an irrational decision to choose a nation they are less connected to, that doesn't seem right to me.

Unfortunately I can't tell people how to think and feel, dammit.

 

[thierry henry]

Wouldn’t be particularly normal in football tbh. Stokes grew up over here, not that often people play for a country they didn’t grow up in in football unless they aren’t wanted.

eh, "grew up here" is debateable.

Stokes went to England at 12. I mean, at this point there's no doubt he's English and will only get more English as the years go by.

But he went to Engand at 12 and played for England at 20. His parents are out-and-out Kiwis who went over to England so his Dad could coach rugby league and then returned home when he was finished. They were a Kiwi family with a Kiwi kid and they are still a Kiwi family.

Obviously it's all on a spectrum, but to me it's nuts to think of a foreign kid turning up at my school at 12, and by 20 no longer seeing him as having his original nationality.

 

[Daemon]

Who else though "**** off Sledger" at first before looking at the join date

I did, although I'm almost always thinking "**** off sledger" when browsing CW

 

[GIMH]

RE Pietersen and Trott, fairly sure in some other sports they’d have been eligible for England from birth given both have an English parent, but both had to come through the hard way if I’m not mistaken?

It’s actually turned into an interesting thread which is nice. For me my stance is that some people have mixed nationalities based on heritage, where they’ve grown up, and whatever else. I have a cousin who has lived in the States for as long as I can remember, and he is an American citizen but you ask him his nationality and the answer is English. But if he chose to represent the US nobody would bat an eyelid.

Stokes falls into a greyer area. If I left the U.K. at 12 I am fairly sure my ties and loyalty sporting wise would still be to England but if he feels the association with England more strongly than he does NZ then I don’t think anyone can question that.

 

[Daemon]

RE Pietersen and Trott, fairly sure in some other sports they’d have been eligible for England from birth given both have an English parent, but both had to come through the hard way if I’m not mistaken?

It’s actually turned into an interesting thread which is nice. For me my stance is that some people have mixed nationalities based on heritage, where they’ve grown up, and whatever else. I have a cousin who has lived in the States for as long as I can remember, and he is an American citizen but you ask him his nationality and the answer is English. But if he chose to represent the US nobody would bat an eyelid.

Stokes falls into a greyer area. If I left the U.K. at 12 I am fairly sure my ties and loyalty sporting wise would still be to England but if he feels the association with England more strongly than he does NZ then I don’t think anyone can question that.

Yep, don't think they could.

It's a lot more greyer for the Archer, Trott, KP type cases. I can sympathise though, because for example I put Singapore ahead of India, but I do think I have strong ties to both and wouldn't like if someone questioned me if I were to hypothetically play for either. It may be the same for him?

 

[Howe_zat]

Ultimately these things are 'questioned' by people who have never had anything but one experience of having one heritage and one culture in one part of one country. Joe Bloggins from Coventry has English parentage as far back as he knows and rarely goes further than the M42, and he can't percieve having another perspective on nationality. So he posts on the internet about how Stokes is a New Zealander because he can read the 'born' line on wikipedia, and that's good enough for him. Simple.

Some people are bound to see national representation differently. International sportsmen, who are overwhemingly more likely to be part of international families who grow up tavelling and with links to a lo more people and places than Joe Bloggins, tend to see nationality differently. Joe Bloggins needs to learn to deal with it.

 

[GIMH]

Indeed. I mean even removing nationality and stripping it down further. I know Tranmere fans my age who’ve never lived outside the south east but support us because their Dad does, having originally been from Wirral. Extrapolate that up a level, plenty of people are born in a country but one parent came from another. If that parent instils patriotism in their own country of origin into the child then that’s often where their loyalty will lie.

But not always. Everyone is different.