England cannot win without Vaughan leading

[superkingdave]

No - Tresco doesn't want to be captain. That was the final straw that made him come home from India when Vaughan was injured and he knew he would have to be captain

 

[tooextracool]

No - Tresco doesn't want to be captain. That was the final straw that made him come home from India when Vaughan was injured and he knew he would have to be captain

Has he mentioned that somewhere?

 

[superkingdave]

I remember reading an article where he mentioned that (Vaughan coming home) was what made his mind up, sadly i can't find a link the internet atm - will have a search

 

[tooextracool]

I remember reading an article where he mentioned that (Vaughan coming home) was what made his mind up, sadly i can't find a link the internet atm - will have a search

if that is indeed the case it would be a tragedy as he is clearly far more capable as a captain than both Strauss and Flintoff. Would place even more importance on Vaughan playing during the Ashes down under.

 

[SJS]

Ponder on these facts.

Fact 1. During Botham's first 25 test matches, England won 15 and lost only 5. England were led by Mike Brearley.

Fact 2. Then Botham became captain and led England for 12 tests. Of these England did not win any

Fact 3. Then Brearley came back as captain and led for four tests. England won three and lost NONE
Fact 4. In the first period Botham averaged 40.5 with the bat and took 5.3 wkts per test at under 20 each

Fact 5. In the second period, Botham averaged 13.1 with the bat and took 3.5 wkts per test at 28.5 each

Fact 6. In the third period, Botham averaged 64.3 with the bat !! and took 7 wkts per test at 20.0 each !!

None of these facts have anything to do with Brearley's batting capabilities but clearly Brearley's presence had (edited) a lot to do with both Botham's AND even more importantly (edited) England's performance.

Now think of Vaughan and Flintoff.

 

[wpdavid]

Ponder on these facts.

Fact 1. During Botham's first 25 test matches, England won 15 and lost only 5. England were led by Mike Brearley.

Fact 2. Then Botham became captain and led England for 12 tests. Of these England did not win any

Fact 3. Then Brearley came back as captain and led for four tests. England won three and lost NONE
Fact 4. In the first period Botham averaged 40.5 with the bat and took 5.3 wkts per test at under 20 each

Fact 5. In the second period, Botham averaged 13.1 with the bat and took 3.5 wkts per test at 28.5 each

Fact 6. In the third period, Botham averaged 64.3 with the bat !! and took 7 wkts per test at 20.0 each !!

None of these facts have anything to do with Brearley's batting capabilities but clearly a lot to do with both Botham's AND England's performance.

Now think of Vaughan and Flintoff.

The bottom line is that I agree that Fred shouldn't be burdened with captaincy, but I'm afraid you're being a bit naughty with your use of stats. As any fule knows, Botham's captaincy coincided with twin series against WI, so his averages were going to worsen irrespective of being in charge, especially considering the poor quality of the sides that made up most of his first 25 tests. Beyond that, his 4 tests under Brearley in 1981 come firmly under the "once in a lifetime" category - he never came close to matching it subsequently. All that being said, we don't need Fred to be burdened with overall responsibility for results this winter.

Can England win in Aus without Vaughan? It's not impossible, but there needs to be some clearer thinking than we've sen from the selectors so far this summer.

 

[SJS]

The bottom line is that I agree that Fred shouldn't be burdened with captaincy, but I'm afraid you're being a bit naughty with your use of stats. As any fule knows, Botham's captaincy coincided with twin series against WI, so his averages were going to worsen irrespective of being in charge, especially considering the poor quality of the sides that made up most of his first 25 tests. Beyond that, his 4 tests under Brearley in 1981 come firmly under the "once in a lifetime" category - he never came close to matching it subsequently. All that being said, we don't need Fred to be burdened with overall responsibility for results this winter.

Can England win in Aus without Vaughan? It's not impossible, but there needs to be some clearer thinking than we've sen from the selectors so far this summer.

You are correct about West Indies but its also true that Botham couldnt handle captaincy and it affected his performance. If you leave West Indies and even look at Australia, after two disastrous matches, Brearley came back and Botham was a champion again.

The point I was trying to make was that Vaughan is needed by England for reasons more than his batting alone since his relatively poor form (just before he went of the team) was being used to deny the fact that England need him

My post is more about Vaughan (as is this thread) rather than Flintoff or Botham. I just thought Botham's was a relatively good example to show what a captain can do for the team. Hence my comment None of these facts have anything to do with Brearley's batting capabilities

I think I made a mistake in the second part of that sentence which I am going to correct

 

[wpdavid]

You are correct about West Indies but its also true that Botham couldnt handle captaincy and it affected his performance. If you leave West Indies and even look at Australia, after two disastrous matches, Brearley came back and Botham was a champion again.

The point I was trying to make was that Vaughan is needed by England for reasons more than his batting alone since his relatively poor form (just before he went of the team) was being used to deny the fact that England need him

My post is more about Vaughan (as is this thread) rather than Flintoff or Botham. I just thought Botham's was a relatively good example to show what a captain can do for the team. Hence my comment None of these facts have anything to do with Brearley's batting capabilities

I think I made a mistake in the second part of that sentence which I am going to correct

There's no denying that relieving Botham of the captaincy made a huge difference to his performances in 1981. I could argue that much of that was due to so much of his captaincy tenure being against WI though. Would he have been so heavily burdened going into the 1981 Ashes if he'd had a couple of series in charge against the sort of sides England had demolished in 1978 & 1979? We'll never know, of course.
As for Fred, I'd certainly prefer him not to be in charge, and I don't understand the Trescothick situation. Yes, I'd prefer Vaughan to be fit for all the reasons you said. Beyond that, he did find some success with the bat last time he played there, and that will be missed more than some of us think. But there's no denying that his captaincy has been missed - you couldn't see England being as soft as they were against SL with him in charge. But the situiation still shouldn't be terminal if the selectors were prepared to use their brains.

 

[tooextracool]

i dont think anyone has stated that they want flintoff as captain(other than graveney), the point though is that with trescothick as captain, England would not miss Vaughan's captaincy as much as people are making it out to be.

 

[Mister Wright]

i dont think anyone has stated that they want flintoff as captain(other than graveney), the point though is that with trescothick as captain, England would not miss Vaughan's captaincy as much as people are making it out to be.

Get off it man, Trescothick doesn't want the captaincy, it aint going to happen.

 

[tooextracool]

Get off it man, Trescothick doesn't want the captaincy, it aint going to happen.

really? and yet theres this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/england/5123882.stm

 

[SJS]

..... that his captaincy has been missed - you couldn't see England being as soft as they were against SL with him in charge.

And THAT is the WHOLE point.

 

[SJS]

It is possible that England has a better captain than Vaughan SOMEWHERE but he is yet to be seen leading the side so we dont really know

 

[steds]

Vaughan definitely out of Ashes.

 

[wpdavid]

really? and yet theres this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/england/5123882.stm

Apparently "he'll consider it".

Call me old fashioned, but I'd prefer our captains to be a bit more enthusiastic about the job than that.

 

[Top_Cat]

Whilst he's opening the bowling/first-change and batting top 6 in Tests, Flintoff should not be captain. If he does take it, I think he should drop his bowling workrate and use himself more in a 'shock' than 'stock' role because he is world-class when zipping them through at 90mph+ and I don't think he'd be able to do that if he was also batting top 6 and captaining. I guess the other alternative is to bat him at 7 and drop Jones for another 'keeper.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Wouldn't that mean England playing with four bowlers?

 

[tooextracool]

Wouldn't that mean England playing with four bowlers?

question is if they play with Plunkett would things be any different?

 

[tooextracool]

Whilst he's opening the bowling/first-change and batting top 6 in Tests, Flintoff should not be captain. If he does take it, I think he should drop his bowling workrate and use himself more in a 'shock' than 'stock' role because he is world-class when zipping them through at 90mph+ and I don't think he'd be able to do that if he was also batting top 6 and captaining. I guess the other alternative is to bat him at 7 and drop Jones for another 'keeper.

I agree, i dont have problems with his captaincy skills, i think the workload has certainly cost him a yard of pace and England simply cannot afford to play too many test matches without him given the balance that he offers to the side. i think whether they like it or not, they have to offer the captaincy to Trescothick and more importantly tell him that it is crucial for the success of the side that he is captain.

 

[Mister Wright]

I agree, i dont have problems with his captaincy skills, i think the workload has certainly cost him a yard of pace and England simply cannot afford to play too many test matches without him given the balance that he offers to the side. i think whether they like it or not, they have to offer the captaincy to Trescothick and more importantly tell him that it is crucial for the success of the side that he is captain.

That still doesn't change the fact that this Engalnd side can't win this forthcoming Ashes series without Vaughan leading even if Trescothick wanted (and does) captain England this summer.