England announce Zimbabwe Squad

[Richard]

Troughton is Average anyway

Personally I think he's a very good player - in the First-Class form of the game - who simply had a disappointing 2004. Which was badly shown-up as so many people did so well (at one point about 7 players were averaging over 50 and 4 or 5 over 60)!

 

[Richard]

No, but an ODI is far less important than a Test (outside the 2 global Tournaments), so it is an easier introduction.

Unless, that is, they are no good at playing the supposedly-easier one-day form of the game and are far more likely to fail at an ODI than a Test.

 

[Richard]

Sadly that's the way it tends to go and I don't agree with it. Also it sometimes ruins a young, inexperienced player as the ODI mentality becomes engrained in him (see Ricardo Powell). On the other hand, a player may impress so greatly in ODIs that he's an undeniable callup to Tests where he impresses more (see Dwayne Bravo).

Yet presently Dwayne Bravo is a far better batsman and bowler at the Test-level than at the ODI.
Not that I don't think, in time (probably not that much of it), he'll become a very good ODI player - but at present I'm not totally certain he's quite as good as some seem to be portraying.
And I wasn't too impressed with Ricardo Powell in his debut Test (when he'd played, what, 10 ODIs?), either - 30 in boundaries then two terrible dismissals or something like that.
I've seen just about all Ricardo Powell's ODI career and he's never struck me as the sort of player who'd make much of himself. His First-Class and List-A records have never been great when I've been watching - maybe Liam knows otherwise.

 

[superkingdave]

very poor move IMO bell is not an ODI batsman.....all this time i've been thinking that the selectors finally managed to get something right by not picking bell, and then this happens....

Given that as a OD batsman he's not had a great year but his List A average is still over 35, which without being brilliant is still a lot better than a lot of the players involves recently (Collingwood, Solanki, Flintoff, Key, Clarke, Vaughan etc).

Indeed there's not many (Pietersen) that should be considered ahead of him on past performance. People say its wrong to pick him in OD but compared to the likes of Prior he's a OD genius.

 

[Richard]

I think that tooextracool comment might just possibly have been based on the "Athertonian-style" judgement of Bell's game - a measured approach, which is assumed not to be the way to go in a smash-bang-wallop game.
And yet, as Atherton himself showed, you don't have to fit stereotypes to be a good one-day player. Atherton was perfectly capable of playing the fast-scoring game when the situation demanded - the last example probably being at National Stadium, Karachi in the second-innings.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I've seen just about all Ricardo Powell's ODI career and he's never struck me as the sort of player who'd make much of himself. His First-Class and List-A records have never been great when I've been watching - maybe Liam knows otherwise.

Did you see him bat at 3 in South Africa? He really looked the part then. The ball was seaming about and yet he kept his head, technique and all and played a couple of good knocks, including one of the best ODI half-centuries I have witnessed.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

His average of 33 this summer was a bit disappointing, but his career average of 42.52 isn't that bad.

Yes, but it's hardly Kadeer level - 19.28 (in 43 innings mind you).

 

[marc71178]

Unless, that is, they are no good at playing the supposedly-easier one-day form of the game and are far more likely to fail at an ODI than a Test.

By eas ier I meant in terms of the fact that a defeat is nowhere near as critical.

 

[tooextracool]

Given that as a OD batsman he's not had a great year but his List A average is still over 35, which without being brilliant is still a lot better than a lot of the players involves recently (Collingwood, Solanki, Flintoff, Key, Clarke, Vaughan etc).

and i dont look at first class records solely to decide whether someone is good enough for ODI cricket or not. bell simply doesnt have the range of strokes to score quickly, hes far too 'orthodox'. key should never have been picked and i said that before he failed. collingwood,flintoff and even vaughan all look extremely capable in ODIs, although vaughan in particular hasnt managed to live up to potential.

 

[tooextracool]

I think that tooextracool comment might just possibly have been based on the "Athertonian-style" judgement of Bell's game - a measured approach, which is assumed not to be the way to go in a smash-bang-wallop game.
And yet, as Atherton himself showed, you don't have to fit stereotypes to be a good one-day player. Atherton was perfectly capable of playing the fast-scoring game when the situation demanded - the last example probably being at National Stadium, Karachi in the second-innings.

and averaging 35 at an SR of 58 cant be considered a success IMO. that SR is as bad a SR as you'll ever see and the average is poor for an opener.

 

[marc71178]

To be fair to Atherton, that was in a period when scoring rates weren't so high, and the 15 over phenomen hadn't come in.

 

[Richard]

The first-15-overs were in place for the last 6 years of Atherton's domestic career (indeed, he was one of the most important people of those who got them introduced) - I can't remember exactly when they were brought into ODIs, but his ODI-career effectively ended in summer 1997 (1 game after that).
I personally always thought he was adequete at using them whenever I saw him in National League and C&G matches - because he was perfectly capable of scoring quickly when neccessary.

 

[Richard]

By eas ier I meant in terms of the fact that a defeat is nowhere near as critical.

Yes, but as a batsman you're not judged on whether your team's won or lost, you're judged on whether or not you've scored runs.
Jamie Troughton being a good example of that - despite being in the squad that won two ODI trophies, he has been forgotten for a while now. Though his disappointing last season will, of course, have had something to do with it, too.

 

[Richard]

and averaging 35 at an SR of 58 cant be considered a success IMO. that SR is as bad a SR as you'll ever see and the average is poor for an opener.

It is not a poor average - all right, the strike-rate isn't good, but the average is fine.
That record is still better than someone averaging in the 20s like Solanki and so many others.

 

[marc71178]

The first-15-overs were in place for the last 6 years of Atherton's domestic career (indeed, he was one of the most important people of those who got them introduced) - I can't remember exactly when they were brought into ODIs, but his ODI-career effectively ended in summer 1997 (1 game after that).

It doesn't matter when the rule was brought in.

It was only in 1996 that the aggressive opener ploy came into play.

 

[tooextracool]

To be fair to Atherton, that was in a period when scoring rates weren't so high, and the 15 over phenomen hadn't come in.

not like that would have made much of a difference to atherton, doubt he would have tried to hit the ball over the in field. 58 is poor regardless of the era, he was distinctly average ODI player, and i doubt he would have been selected had he been playing ATM.

 

[tooextracool]

It is not a poor average - all right, the strike-rate isn't good, but the average is fine.

no a mediocre average and a poor SR is not good enough for any player let alone an opener to be part of a side. you seem to be indicating as though atherton turned out to be a glorious ODI success when the fact is that he barely merited selection in the side.....

That record is still better than someone averaging in the 20s like Solanki and so many others.

because thats what it takes to be a good ODI player?

 

[tooextracool]

It doesn't matter when the rule was brought in.

It was only in 1996 that the aggressive opener ploy came into play.

and interestingly after 96 atherton got worse.

 

[superkingdave]

and i dont look at first class records solely to decide whether someone is good enough for ODI cricket or not. bell simply doesnt have the range of strokes to score quickly, hes far too 'orthodox'.

Last 6 OD innings

89 from 70 vs Surrey
17 from 35 vs Lancs
58 from 91 vs Northants (MOM)
51 from 61 vs Kent
35 from 43 vs Glamorgan
76 from 69 vs Gloucs

Looks like a rubbish slow scorer to me

 

[Neil Pickup]

17 from 35 vs Lancs

When?