England 17-man squad

[tooextracool]

That isn't true. Someone at ten is going to be coming in with everyone above them better. That means they could easily put on 70 or 80 with the man who was a the crease as they came to it.

Unlike bowling, you can never, ever have too deep a batting unit. You want all the batting you can get. In any case, Rashid's batting > Swann's at worst, and maybe Broad's too.

Yeah, but you cannot compromise on the bowling ability. I would never ever pick a marginally worse bowler at number 10, even if hes a better batter than someone else.

 

[four_or_six]

Of course there is. Heavens, I'm not hailing Onions as a Test-standard bowler at this point in time. But where there is something for him, there is nothing for Broad. Ergo, Broad = not proven good enough for anything much; Onions = proven outstanding so far this season if not much else.

Well if you're going to drop Broad, who over the last 6 months in tests has 20 wickets at 29, 160 runs at 27, has performed well in limited overs internationals, is young and has shown considerable improvement over his career, you may as well drop the whole team and start afresh with 11 new players.

 

[Penguinissimo]

Well if you're going to drop Broad, who over the last 6 months in tests has 20 wickets at 29, 160 runs at 27, has performed well in limited overs internationals, is young and has shown considerable improvement over his career, you may as well drop the whole team and start afresh with 11 new players.

I agree entirely with this point of view.

 

[four_or_six]

That isn't true. Someone at ten is going to be coming in with everyone above them better. That means they could easily put on 70 or 80 with the man who was a the crease as they came to it.

Unlike bowling, you can never, ever have too deep a batting unit. You want all the batting you can get. In any case, Rashid's batting > Swann's at worst, and maybe Broad's too.

He's that good? Cause he looked pretty clueless in the T20.

Edit: Ah yeah, his FC average is much better than the LO. It's weird though, I thought he looked like he only knew how to play one shot.

 

[Scaly piscine]

He's that good? Cause he looked pretty clueless in the T20.

Rashid has a lot of batting ability, he just doesn't have the experience or batting mentality yet - something which was exaggerated in a late over T20 situation (Broad should have said more than he did to him, calmed him down etc.) The problem is a mental one, rather than one of ability.

 

[tooextracool]

Well if you're going to drop Broad, who over the last 6 months in tests has 20 wickets at 29, 160 runs at 27, has performed well in limited overs internationals, is young and has shown considerable improvement over his career, you may as well drop the whole team and start afresh with 11 new players.

Firstly, Broad's record in ODIs and t20s are irrelevant to his test match record.
Second, his bowling record, and lets remember thats the primary reason for his selection, 20 wickets at 29 in the last 6 months is hardly flash.
Third, no one is suggesting that Broad be dropped for the Ashes, if he was to be dropped, he would be dropped for 1 test match at Cardiff and then included for the rest of the series in all probability.

 

[superkingdave]

I'm not sure it even matters, he'll play every test in the series. Rightly or wrongly, in the current climate with the current selectors, Anderson would be left out before Broad.

 

[tooextracool]

I'm not sure it even matters, he'll play every test in the series. Rightly or wrongly, in the current climate with the current selectors, Anderson would be left out before Broad.

This is true. I think its a direct shoot out between Onions and Rashid based on their performance against the touring Aussies in the warm up game for that final berth at Cardiff with the added possibility of course that if both of them get tonked around that Panesar might play.

 

[aussie]

Im not sure what Sidebottom's CC career was like, but hes in his early 30s, its hardly going to get better for him from here. He hasnt proved that hes recovered from all of his injuries because hes yet to take wickets in CC, and 4 overs per game in t20s doesnt prove much.

But yet Rashid has basically been fast-forward into the Ashes training squad based on T20results. Sidebottom has never shown this kind of pace he showed in the T20 WC in test matches. So that is a positive sign in itself.

As far as Onions is concerned, in the games against the WI, he was hitting lengths that were extremely awkward for any batsman, the so called length at which a batsman is not really sure whether to go forward or back. Either way, you cant drop someone who has done everything right. He might struggle at Cardiff given whats expected, but at Lords, he could be extremely useful.

Just like Richard Johnson vs ZIM in 03...its the same thing with Onions vs WI for me. Although Onions is a bit better, i just dont see having Onions being a serious threat againts the AUS. At least i know what Sidebottom can do once he's fit in tests...

 

[tooextracool]

But yet Rashid has basically been fast-forward into the Ashes training squad based on T20results. Sidebottom has never shown this kind of pace he showed in the T20 WC in test matches. So that is a positive sign in itself.

Not really, Rashid took 65 wickets last season at 31 a piece. Not brilliant of course, but hes universally regarded as the 2nd best spinner in England after Swann and hes only 21 at that. Whilst Rashid should not have played in the t20 world cup, I quite like the look of him for test match cricket, he certainly seems to have modelled himself on Mushtaq Ahmed or perhaps Mushtaq has had a major influence on him lately, but either way he looks to have some serious potential and thats why he is in the Ashes squad. Being one of the best spinners in the country of course means that if a game is going to be played on a turner against a team that traditionally have not favored spin, on a pitch such as Cardiff where such a possibility is evident that Adil Rashid is always going to be in the frame for selection.

As far as Sidebottom is concerned, I dont see how bowling 4 over spells in a handful of games at high pace is supposed to prove that Sidebottom is both fully fit to survive an entire test match or that hes good enough as a test match bowler.

Just like Richard Johnson vs ZIM in 03...its the same thing with Onions vs WI for me. Although Onions is a bit better, i just dont see having Onions being a serious threat againts the AUS. At least i know what Sidebottom can do once he's fit in tests...

Which is? Destroy the 2 poorest batting sides in the world? Sorry Sidebottom hasnt proven anything which Onions hasnt.
Sidebottom needs to go back to couty cricket and prove himself first before he can stake a claim for a test spot and Onions has earned is so whether or not you think Onions is good enough or not, there is absolutely no reason to drop him at this point in time.

As far as my own opinion of Onions goes, I will reserve my judgement until I've seen a little bit more of him, but from what I have seen I have been impressed.

 

[Richard]

Well if you're going to drop Broad, who over the last 6 months in tests has 20 wickets at 29, 160 runs at 27, has performed well in limited overs internationals, is young and has shown considerable improvement over his career, you may as well drop the whole team and start afresh with 11 new players.

Nah. Dropping Broad would still make a whole lot less nonsense than dropping Pietersen, Collingwood, Strauss, Flintoff, Prior, Swann, and even Cook and Bopara.

As a Test bowler, Broad has still yet to demonstrate he's up to the task. He's certainly not done anything in the last six months to deserve to be out-and-out dropped (rather than left-out as a short-term tactical, conditions-orientated move) but he is yet to prove himself Test-class and is an enormously lesser Test cricketer than most in the England team.

 

[Manee]

I disagree that it is currently the case, based on his strong County FC performances whenever he goes back to County cricket and just watching him bowl as of late. He has evolved from a medium pacer who puts it on the spot to a quick, wicket taking option who can bowl high quality spells.

 

[Richard]

Not really, Rashid took 65 wickets last season at 31 a piece. Not brilliant of course, but hes universally regarded as the 2nd best spinner in England after Swann and hes only 21 at that. Whilst Rashid should not have played in the t20 world cup, I quite like the look of him for test match cricket, he certainly seems to have modelled himself on Mushtaq Ahmed or perhaps Mushtaq has had a major influence on him lately

Yeah, there was some piece by Simon Hughes from I think early in the 2007 season about him, pointing-out the Mushtaq similarity - I'm pretty sure he said he'd modelled himself on Mushtaq.

Amazing that even as Mushtaq came over here in 2003 - when he was already essentially a spent force at Test level - Rashid would still only have been 15, which is the age at which Nasser Hussain finally lost his wristspin for good. I imagine Rashid has deliberately copied lots of Mushtaq's bowling action.

As for his form last season, well, it wasn't too spectacular. Up until about the middle of August he had 30-odd wickets at nearly 50. He then did pretty damn well as the season came to a close.

Rashid certainly has potential and that's been said since he took 6-65 or whatever it was on First-Class debut at the age of 18, but he's still got plenty to do yet IMO.

 

[four_or_six]

Nah. Dropping Broad would still make a whole lot less nonsense than dropping Pietersen, Collingwood, Strauss, Flintoff, Prior, Swann, and even Cook and Bopara.

As a Test bowler, Broad has still yet to demonstrate he's up to the task. He's certainly not done anything in the last six months to deserve to be out-and-out dropped (rather than left-out as a short-term tactical, conditions-orientated move) but he is yet to prove himself Test-class and is an enormously lesser Test cricketer than most in the England team.

I agree that he hasn't yet proven he is a brilliant bowler. But his record this year is as good as Anderson's bowling-wise, better than Flintoff's (slightly for bowling, but more for batting).

Anyway, the relevant comparison is not between Broad and our top six and incumbent spinner, it's between Broad and Anderson/Onions/Sidebottom/Panesar/Rashid/Harmison/Flintoff.

 

[social]

No way Eng drops Broad for even one test - he's seen as the golden child and has potential

 

[tooextracool]

I disagree that it is currently the case, based on his strong County FC performances whenever he goes back to County cricket and just watching him bowl as of late. He has evolved from a medium pacer who puts it on the spot to a quick, wicket taking option who can bowl high quality spells.

There is no doubt that he is a far superior bowler now than he was at this point last year. The winter tours have done him a world of good as they have given him the opportunity to ply his trade on the deadest of pitches around the world and learn some new tricks which has really helped prepare him for when he plays on the slower, flatter tracks in the future.
Which is why, on rethinking my argument, it might make more sense to have Broad than Onions play at Cardiff.
However, the only thing that concerns me regarding Broad is that he has struggled to take wickets consistently in test match cricket. His wickets have been expensive and that's because he has yet not shown the ability to bowl wicket-taking or as Richard would call them RUDs. Maybe things have changed recently, but we wont know until the Ashes series begins.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah, there was some piece by Simon Hughes from I think early in the 2007 season about him, pointing-out the Mushtaq similarity - I'm pretty sure he said he'd modelled himself on Mushtaq.

Amazing that even as Mushtaq came over here in 2003 - when he was already essentially a spent force at Test level - Rashid would still only have been 15, which is the age at which Nasser Hussain finally lost his wristspin for good. I imagine Rashid has deliberately copied lots of Mushtaq's bowling action.

As for his form last season, well, it wasn't too spectacular. Up until about the middle of August he had 30-odd wickets at nearly 50. He then did pretty damn well as the season came to a close.

Rashid certainly has potential and that's been said since he took 6-65 or whatever it was on First-Class debut at the age of 18, but he's still got plenty to do yet IMO.

That is interesting, because the last time I watched him bowl before the t20 WC I could have sworn his action and deliveri bore no noticeable resemblance to the Pakistani leg-spinner's. It might have been a couple of years ago or so, so I would have thought that it was something that he only recently acquired having worked extensively with Mushtaq who became the new England spin bowling coach.

As far as Rashid is concerned, I would think bowling at Headingley for the majority of his games must obviously affect his record adversely. Nonetheless, I cannot think of who would be a better option if England do go in with 2 spinners at Cardiff. The question I guess should really be should they even play 2 spinners at Cardiff?

 

[Richard]

No way Eng drops Broad for even one test - he's seen as the golden child and has potential

Pretty much, in short, as dav said:

I'm not sure it even matters, he'll play every test in the series. Rightly or wrongly, in the current climate with the current selectors, Anderson would be left out before Broad.

 

[tooextracool]

No way Eng drops Broad for even one test - he's seen as the golden child and has potential

Yep wont be dropped, even though England have been extremely ruthless with their pace bowlers lately. Harmison, Broad, Sidebottom, Anderson and heck even Swann have been dropped at one point or another in the last year.

 

[Richard]

That is interesting, because the last time I watched him bowl before the t20 WC I could have sworn his action and deliveri bore no noticeable resemblance to the Pakistani leg-spinner's. It might have been a couple of years ago or so, so I would have thought that it was something that he only recently acquired having worked extensively with Mushtaq who became the new England spin bowling coach.

The video in question was linked to on CW here, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available any more. Worth checking again a bit later though - site might just be down.

As far as Rashid is concerned, I would think bowling at Headingley for the majority of his games must obviously affect his record adversely. Nonetheless, I cannot think of who would be a better option if England do go in with 2 spinners at Cardiff. The question I guess should really be should they even play 2 spinners at Cardiff?

Indeed, and I've long thought that it should be a "no". The question seems to be being raised on two fallacies - one, that it's just about certain that the pitch will be a rank Bunsen (it isn't - it's merely more likely than not), and two, that Australia are utterly hopeless against spin.

The only time you ever want to play two spinners in my view is when two criteria are fulfilled: both spinners are pretty good, not merely decent; and the pitch is a rank Bunsen.

The last time that happened in England was at least 30-odd years ago, and the last time it happened regularly was about 40.