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Eng vs. SA head to head?

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Scaly piscine said:
A tail that wagged a bit in the first innings, Drakes and Mohammed are pretty solid with the bat and wouldn't get many better wickets to hang around on.
Yet you'd back them to hang around against Pollock, Ntini and Nel in form for a significant period of time under pressure? You've not seen much West Indies cricket, have you? Drakes and Mohammed are both handy batsmen, but handier West Indian batsmen have cracked under less of a task.
 

garage flower

State Vice-Captain
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
I wouldn't necessarily put Lara above Tendulkar. I think they're on par. Regarding Youhana and Gibbs, I'm fans of both, but I rate Kallis higher. He's probably on par with Vaughan and Martyn though, as I rate Martyn very highly. Not too sure about Laxman. Very good batsman, but I'd probably put Kallis ahead.
I was just trying to reel a few people in with the Lara thing, but I would rate him - and Dravid - above Tendulkar, based on what I've seen over the last 12 months or so.

Kallis just has that impregnable look about him when he's at the crease; partly, I think, to do with his solid physical appearance. Certainly doesn't have the elegance or display - though he may possess - the range of strokes of a Vaughan, Martyn or Laxman.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Yet you'd back them to hang around against Pollock, Ntini and Nel in form for a significant period of time under pressure? You've not seen much West Indies cricket, have you? Drakes and Mohammed are both handy batsmen, but handier West Indian batsmen have cracked under less of a task.
I'm not saying they couldn't have lost with those 2 next in, just that 'a match that was only drawn due (to) the heroics of Dwayne Smith' is a bit of hot air to make Kallis look better - if he kept pinching a single off the last ball of the over and had batted out the entire last session on his own with 1 wicket left then yea you could say it 'was only drawn due (to) the heroics of Dwayne Smith'. The fact remains WI didn't get that close to losing because they still had half their wickets left and the pitch was obviously pretty flat.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
garage flower said:
Certainly doesn't have the elegance or display - though he may possess - the range of strokes of a Vaughan, Martyn or Laxman.
Personally I'd dispute both parts of that.
I'd find it pretty tough to get sick of the sight of him at the crease.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Scaly piscine said:
I'm not saying they couldn't have lost with those 2 next in, just that 'a match that was only drawn due (to) the heroics of Dwayne Smith' is a bit of hot air to make Kallis look better - if he kept pinching a single off the last ball of the over and had batted out the entire last session on his own with 1 wicket left then yea you could say it 'was only drawn due (to) the heroics of Dwayne Smith'. The fact remains WI didn't get that close to losing because they still had half their wickets left and the pitch was obviously pretty flat.
Congratulations. You've managed to ignore everything that I've said in my post and restate your post above. What was point of quoting mine then?
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Scaly piscine said:
Yea I forgot how bowler friendly that first Test in India was,.
yes and amazingly enough the FTB managed only a paltry 121 and 55 in the 2nd test on what most people would describe as a turner.

Scaly piscine said:
the Tests with a result involving India & SL weren't exactly low scoring either. Anyways he still averages 32.61 v Aus, 37.47 v Eng, 38.00 v Pak, 33.63 v SL - ie the teams with decent bowling with a career average bloated by drawn games and Bangladesh & Zimbabwe beatings. We'll see how Kallis' batting holds up when the going gets tough against England.
i wont deny that kallis has been better against poorer attacks than he has against the quality ones, but one must remember that flintoff hasnt exactly been brilliant either. against india flintoff averages a whole 12 runs, against SA he averages 35, against SL he averages 21 and even against zimbabwe he averages 11. he hasnt played against pak or australia. so the same argument can be used against him.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
garage flower said:
Well, yes, for a start there's Lara then....










....the rest, but should Kallis be jostling for position amongst these or is he on a par with the likes of Martyn, Laxman, Vaughan, Gibbs, Youhana etc?
no he shouldnt be at the top, but either way hes still better than flintoff.
and i still dont understand why people rate youhana so highly. his average against australia is 24, against sa it is 16 and against SL it is 24. his average is over inflated by performances against zimbabwe, bangladesh and the WI, neither of whom have anything better than rubbish attacks(well at least when the WI played them last time)
 

tooextracool

International Coach
garage flower said:
though he may possess - the range of strokes of a Vaughan, Martyn or Laxman.
as far as i know, kallis isnt the best cutter or sweeper. certainly both vaughan and martyn possess more strokes than he does.
he does however have an immaculate cover drive, one of the best in the world ATm
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
tooextracool said:
as far as i know, kallis isnt the best cutter or sweeper. certainly both vaughan and martyn possess more strokes than he does.
he does however have an immaculate cover drive, one of the best in the world ATm
And the 2nd best defence in world cricket after Rahul Dravid IMO
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
3rd. Stick Ganga in there. ;)
I love watching him bat. Really pure and solid looking guy who I model myself on.. Its such a shame he never put the big runs up that were needed to further his career
 

garage flower

State Vice-Captain
Richard said:
Personally I'd dispute both parts of that.
I'd find it pretty tough to get sick of the sight of him at the crease.
It's all a question of taste I suppose, but I certainly wouldn't describe Kallis as elegant, which isn't to say I don't enjoy watching him (though I was pig sick of the sight of him against the Windies).

As Langeveldt has mentioned, it's more his immaculate defence that stands out.
 

garage flower

State Vice-Captain
Langeveldt said:
I love watching him bat.
But it's a fleeting pleasure! Still, he appears to be in with a shout of returning to the one-day squad (could be battling with his brother, Sherwin, for a spot).
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
tooextracool said:
and kallis averaged more against them than flintoff did. incidentally hes also averaged 80 and 42 in india and SL respectively, neither of which are poor bowling attacks or have too many batter friendly wickets. remind me again how much flintoff averaged on his tours there?

Hardly fair to use India as an example.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
garage flower said:
but should Kallis be jostling for position amongst these or is he on a par with the likes of Martyn, Laxman, Vaughan, Gibbs, Youhana etc?
I would put him in that second tier but not far off the top rung.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
Hardly fair to use India as an example.
im just trying to remember when the last time was that flintoff succeeded away from home. theres no doubt that hes improved as a player but to put him over a proven player all over the world like kallis is simply ridiculous.
 

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